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Author Topic: Measurement microphones  (Read 5235 times)

bobkatz

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Measurement microphones
« on: December 18, 2004, 09:31:29 AM »

Hi, everyone. Santa bought me a Chinese measurement microphone, 1/2" capsule, from BSWA Technology Co. Inc. I hope Santa is just as good for you!

BSWA seem pretty sophisticated, so it's not nice to say "it's a B&K 4006 knockoff", but since the model number includes 4006 there is no coincidence there.

The microphone is individually calibrated, and the curve supplied labelled "0 degree free-field response" is ruler flat to 1 kHz (awfully suspicious) and has a rise in a slightly peaky shape to +0.75 db at about 9 kHz. Flat at 15K, and -2 dB at 20K (strange).

Do you think this was taken with the Protective grid on the capsule or not? Should I measure with or without the grid? Should I point the microphone at the loudspeaker or straight up and down? My guess is straight up and down (90 degrees to the source) because of the rising response on axis.

My next question is do you think this is a "free field microphone" or a "pressure response capsule"? There is a correction needed of -0.3 dB for 1/2" free field microphones with my ACO Pacific Calibrator. Hey, as long as I'm getting anal, I might well get that SPL RIGHT!

Comments, please.


Bob
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Level

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Re: Measurement microphones
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2004, 10:12:13 AM »

I find that the highest frequencies must be measured at point source due to calibration microphones not having the ability to remain flat off axis above a given frequency range. In testing, it is not uncommon to combine 3 graphs, ie: ~ to 120hz, 120hz to 5K and 5K up (basic ranges) but I really don't like nor will I subscribe to this practice. Just remember, at 90 degrees (pointing strait up) it is seriously doubtful you will see accuracy above 10kHz due to the narrow dispersion of tweeters above these frequencies. The mic simply will struggle to capture them. Even amongst the finest tweeters, the dispersion can be compared more to a laser beam than to a pistonic radiation pattern. Pointing the mic strait up will yield your reflective response..which certainly is no indication of what the loudspeaker is actually transmitting.

One method that proves promising (in my case) is to do each loudspeaker and then the pair. To obtain the distance ratio, one must consider where the loudspeakers focal area in distance is. For accuracy at 1 meter, the response at a few inches will be tilted up above 4K. To find the distance point where all the drivers in a multiway loudspeaker "meet" in space, several Free field measurements will need to be taken, then the proper distance for that particular design can be established. Mating the pair will certain cause this distance to change VS that of a single loudspeaker so care must be taken. Inverse square should be considered.

It is highly common for a tweeter at a few inches to be 3 to 4dB hotter than the woofers and the actual distance of accuracy varies wildly between designs. Find that point in distance where the loudspeakers (in pairs) match in spectrum and then find it per loudspeaker. This will be a different distance. The pair response should be taken into consideration since this is how we monitor. Exceptional loudspeakers have a larger envelope of distance to accuracy ratio.

Here is a microphone paper of interest.

Understanding how calibration microphones are calibrated is essential in understanding proper useage.

http://www.bksv.com/pdf/Bv0051.pdf



I will elaborate further as your testing ensues!
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bobkatz

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Re: Measurement microphones
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2004, 10:17:55 AM »

Level wrote on Sat, 18 December 2004 10:12

I find that the highest frequencies must be measured at point source due to calibration microphones not having the ability to remain flat off axis above a given frequency range. In testing, it is not uncommon to combine 3 graphs, ie: ~ to 120hz, 120hz to 5K and 5K up (basic ranges) but I really don't like nor will I subscribe to this practice. Just remember, at 90 degrees (pointing strait up) it is seriously doubtful you will see accuracy above 10kHz due to the narrow dispersion of tweeters above these frequencies.





Level, you know not of what you speak. I'm sorry to chastise you, but you are confusing two completely separate issues: the response of tweeters with the off-axis response of a 1/2" microphone. Two completely separate issues.

The sole question is whether I would get a flatter and more correct measurement
response if pointing a certain measurement microphone with a certain capsule size and grid in a certain direction. You are aware that the smaller the size of the microphone capsule, the less important the direction you point? You are aware that we are discussing issues of angle of incidence and cancellation (comb filtering) on the mike diaphragm and NOT any issues of tweeter performance?

This has nothing to do with a treatise on tweeters! Please....


BK
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Level

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Re: Measurement microphones
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2004, 10:24:12 AM »

At 90 degrees, my 4006's are several dB down (above 10K). Why should I point them 90 degrees off axis if I my goal was to measure the accuracy of the loudspeakers?

It goes hand in hand, to the gentle reader (anyone that comes along) I included tweeter response issues as another variable in the testing realm to "watch for". I would not have even spoken of tweeters if this were a PM..rather I would have said, your microphone will have inaccuracies off axis, I suggest you point the microphones at the source.

Bob, you are not the only one reading this, I feel a need to put the text in a form where everyone can see the "scope" of the complications of loudspeaker measurements.

You commented on the rising response on axis, just compensate for it in measurement, not by off axis useage. You will be entering in another set of variables off axis.

Now what part did I get wrong?
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bobkatz

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Re: Measurement microphones
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2004, 10:39:39 AM »

Level wrote on Sat, 18 December 2004 10:24

At 90 degrees, my 4006's are several dB down (above 10K). Why should I point them 90 degrees off axis if I my goal was to measure the accuracy of the loudspeakers?





That's the point! But please don't confuse this with the tweeter's off axis response or the directivity of your tweeters! Look back at the confusing language you used in your post.

Pointing the microphone in a different way changes the microphone's frequency response to the angle of incidence and has nothing to do with the dispersion or directivity of your tweeters.

Many authorities recommend pointing a which has a RISING incidence response but a FLAT free field response at 90 degrees to the source. You'll find this in the literature. My question simply related to whether the particular microphone I am using should be used with or without the grill and pointing straight or 90 degrees.
The company (BSWA) has not sent any supportive literature as to the microphone's free field response....

Yes, you can conceivably integrate the microphone's known on axis rising response if you choose to point it. Well, that's something that's up for discussion in this thread!

BK
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Level

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Re: Measurement microphones
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2004, 10:49:53 AM »

Points taken. One would seem that you would need to establish this off axis response of the microphone first in order to use it that way. That would certainly be based on having a set of "knowns" on axis, then establishing the off axis response. A Chamber needs to be of order for that. It simply looks easier to extrapolate from knowns than to extrapolate from unknowns!

I have not had the best of luck with the 90 degree arrangements. It would be prudent for that manufacturer to supply you with as much info as possible as per the protective grid, just as B&K supplied with all the curves for each of the nose pieces for my mics.

I wish you well..just increasing the variables of the off axis seems to be a pita from my pov.
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Tomas Danko

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Re: Measurement microphones
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2004, 01:20:52 PM »

bobkatz wrote on Sat, 18 December 2004 14:31

Hi, everyone. Santa bought me a Chinese measurement microphone, 1/2" capsule, from BSWA Technology Co. Inc. I hope Santa is just as good for you!

Do you think this was taken with the Protective grid on the capsule or not? Should I measure with or without the grid? Should I point the microphone at the loudspeaker or straight up and down? My guess is straight up and down (90 degrees to the source) because of the rising response on axis.

My next question is do you think this is a "free field microphone" or a "pressure response capsule"? There is a correction needed of -0.3 dB for 1/2" free field microphones with my ACO Pacific Calibrator. Hey, as long as I'm getting anal, I might well get that SPL RIGHT!

Comments, please.


Bob



Dude, be very careful whenever being anal anywhere near long and sleek measuring microphones ok? I sure hope there won't be an unfortunate mishap regarding that straight up and down axis thing.

All the best,

Tomas Danko
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bobkatz

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Re: Measurement microphones
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2004, 02:23:45 PM »

Tomas Danko wrote on Sat, 18 December 2004 13:20



Dude, be very careful whenever being anal anywhere near long and sleek measuring microphones ok? I sure hope there won't be an unfortunate mishap regarding that straight up and down axis thing.




Is that why they put a MALE connector on the thing? Thanks for the warning, Thomas.

I received this excellent response from David Josephson on the Pro Audio List and I'd like to cross pollinate it here:

Bob Katz wrote:

>Hi, everyone. Santa bought me a Chinese measurement microphone, 1/2"
>capsule, from BSWA Technology Co. Inc. I hope Santa is just as good for you!
>
>BSWA seem pretty sophisticated, so it's not nice to say "it's a B&K 4006
>knockoff", but since the model number includes 4006 there is no coincidence
>there.
>  
>
We have been looking at BSWA for some time as an alternative for
measurement mic capsules. At the moment they don't meet our needs but
they are improving and are certainly better than the mics based on
jellybean plastic diaphragm capsules. They are a commercial spinoff of a
research academy in Beijing and have some interesting ideas -- whether
this can translate into a reliable commercial product remains to be seen.

>The microphone is individually calibrated, and the curve supplied labelled
>"0 degree free-field response" is ruler flat to 1 kHz (awfully suspicious)
>and has a rise in a slightly peaky shape to +0.75 db at about 9 kHz. Flat at
>15K, and -2 dB at 20K (strange).
>  
>
That's not suspicious or strange at all, that curve is believable for a
low-tension 1/2" capsule resonant at 9 kHz, except that the response at
20 kHz may in fact drop lower than -2 dB.

>Do you think this was taken with the Protective grid on the capsule or not?
>Should I measure with or without the grid? Should I point the microphone at
>the loudspeaker or straight up and down? My guess is straight up and down
>(90 degrees to the source) because of the rising response on axis.
>  
>
You should ask BSWA, but I would expect that, as in most measurement
mics on the market, the curve is made with an electrostatic coupler and
"corrected" to actual freefield response with the grid on. You don't
want to use it at 90 degrees to the sound source unless you know what
the response is at 90 degrees -- use it on-axis and correct for the
curve that you have.

The only true calibration for a free-field measurement microphone is
free-field reciprocity, and it costs several thousand dollars to have
NIST do that for you to an accuracy of about +/- 0.2 dB mid band, to
about 8 kHz. Some makers (Microtech Gefell for instance, which we sell
in North America) use a differential coupler which produces a
measurement referenced to a calibrated standard mic, but most (including
B&K) use an electrostatic actuator, the data from which is fudged to
match the data that would be produced in freefield conditions.

Fortunately, absent a design or manufacturing defect, small
omnidirectional (pressure) mics are inherently flat within a small
fraction of a dB from their low frequency rolloff point to about 2/3 of
the resonant frequency. The low frequency rolloff point is set by the
vent behind the diaphragm and is probably not shown on your curve.

>My next question is do you think this is a "free field microphone" or a
>"pressure response capsule"? There is a correction needed of -0.3 dB for
>1/2" free field microphones with my ACO Pacific Calibrator. Hey, as long as
>I'm getting anal, I might well get that SPL RIGHT!
>  
>
There is no such thing as a "free field microphone" as such. That term
is used to claim "flat" response in free-field conditions, which the
curve you have asserts. The Microtech Gefell measurement mics we sell
come with calibration curves that show the actual actuator response, and
what that translates to in both free-field and  pressure conditions.
Microphones are available that are tuned for mostly flat response in
either free-field or pressure conditions. You would ordinarily use a
pressure mic only in a pressure coupler, for instance measuring the
output of hearing aids, or in a diffuse-field measurement, which
requires spatial averaging to be accurate.

You should confirm this with ACO Pacific, but their -0.3 dB correction
for "free field microphones" refers to *their* free-field microphones,
and may be different for those of BSWA, for instance. The compliance and
equivalent volume of the BSWA capsule may be different, yielding a
different result.

It's not "getting anal" to be careful about your measurements. What good
is a measurement if you don't know how accurate it is? The basis of all
the military, ISO, IEC etc. calibration standards is simply to make you
think about how sure you are about the measurement you're making. At the
end of the day you should be able to arrive at a number for the
measurement, and a number for how accurate it is, and how you know that
these two numbers are true in the worst case of drift and uncertainty.

--
David Josephson / Josephson Engineering Inc / www.josephson.com
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Tomas Danko

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Re: Measurement microphones
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2004, 02:32:06 PM »

bobkatz wrote on Sat, 18 December 2004 19:23

Tomas Danko wrote on Sat, 18 December 2004 13:20



Dude, be very careful whenever being anal anywhere near long and sleek measuring microphones ok? I sure hope there won't be an unfortunate mishap regarding that straight up and down axis thing.




Is that why they put a MALE connector on the thing? Thanks for the warning, Thomas.

I received this excellent response from David Josephson on the Pro Audio List and I'd like to cross pollinate it here:


It's not "getting anal" to be careful about your measurements. What good
is a measurement if you don't know how accurate it is? The basis of all
--
David Josephson / Josephson Engineering Inc / www.josephson.com



I own a couple of chinese made measuring microphones myself. So if you measure yours I will measure mine... Not that it would ever get anal as far as accuracy.

Cheers,

Tomas Danko

Ps. Last time I hooked one up for an RTA in my control room it didn't matter at all where I aimed the mic, as long as I kept it in the middle of the room or so.
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ammitsboel

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Re: Measurement microphones
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2004, 08:04:21 PM »

Tomas Danko wrote on Sat, 18 December 2004 19:32

bobkatz wrote on Sat, 18 December 2004 19:23


Is that why they put a MALE connector on the thing? Thanks for the warning, Thomas.

I received this excellent response from David Josephson on the Pro Audio List and I'd like to cross pollinate it here:


It's not "getting anal" to be careful about your measurements. What good
is a measurement if you don't know how accurate it is? The basis of all
--
David Josephson / Josephson Engineering Inc / www.josephson.com



I own a couple of chinese made measuring microphones myself. So if you measure yours I will measure mine... Not that it would ever get anal as far as accuracy.

Cheers,

Tomas Danko

Ps. Last time I hooked one up for an RTA in my control room it didn't matter at all where I aimed the mic, as long as I kept it in the middle of the room or so.



Sure, then I will measure mine too...  Rolling Eyes

Best Regards
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