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Author Topic: Optimal Sample Rate  (Read 8864 times)

stark

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Optimal Sample Rate
« on: November 16, 2004, 02:57:29 PM »

Dan,
Please some general advice to a non-tech musician.  From my limited understanding of your paper, it seems that a sample rate of twice the audio bandwidth is optimal.  Should I assume that 44.1/24 is the way to go?  

Adam Stark
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Nika Aldrich

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Re: Optimal Sample Rate
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2004, 03:45:38 PM »

Adam,

It's actually a complicated question.  My guess is that if the industry had it to do all over again, with sound quality and design and efficiency as its goals, that we'd probably be operating with roughly a 60kHz sample frequency.  

In all theory proposed it is possible for 44.1kS/s to sound the same as the higher rates.  As to whether or not it does is dependant upon the equipment you buy.  If the end result of your project is 44.1kS/s it is difficult to fathom reasons why the extra bandwidth during the recording would provide you an audibly better end result - stay at 44.1kS/s.  

If you can deliver on any medium you want you might choose 96kS/s if your equipment sounds better at that rate.

Every project I did was at 44.1kS/s and I have no complaints.  I made my choice based on the sound of the results with the equipment I had.

Nika
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Schallfeldnebel

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Re: Optimal Sample Rate
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2004, 04:14:24 PM »

One of the first AES Conventions I attended was somewhere in the early 80ties in Amsterdam. I was invited to visit the AEG Telefunken booth, the factory of those analog machines build like tanks. Telefunken just had joined a co-operation with Mitsubishi, and here was a reel to reel digital machine, working on about a 55kHz sample rate.

As often it already was there in the past, but for some kind of commercial reason, we allways seem to be willing to drop the quality level, and now we are trying to gain it back.

In my opinion, 55-60kHz, would have been about the perfect samplerate.

Erik Sikkema
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Danman

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Re: Optimal Sample Rate
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2004, 08:33:51 PM »

How about 88.2 then? Makes for easy 44.1 conversion and is comfortably above your magic 60 KHz.

What about the DVD format - I don't know anything about it. Can you release 24bit/88.2 kHz, or is it only 24/96?

Dan (still waiting for some good discussion on the micpre thread Smile )
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Nika Aldrich

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Re: Optimal Sample Rate
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2004, 08:51:28 PM »

Danman wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 20:33

How about 88.2 then? Makes for easy 44.1 conversion and is comfortably above your magic 60 KHz.


If 60kS/s is OPTIMAL then why do you assume that ABOVE optimal is better than BELOW optimal?

Further, the way that SRC is done nowadays the conversion between 88.2kS/s and 44.1kS/s is the same as the conversion from 96kS/s and 44.1kS/s.  Ideally one COULD do the process simpler, but they don't.

Quote:

What about the DVD format - I don't know anything about it. Can you release 24bit/88.2 kHz, or is it only 24/96?


You mean DVD-A?  Yes, it can handle many formats, including those.

Nika
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Danman

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Re: Optimal Sample Rate
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2004, 09:49:18 PM »

I'm not assuming anything. My A/D (and I think many of them) only supports 44.1, 48, 88.2, and 96. 88.2 would be a good choice, it seems.

Dan
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Nika Aldrich

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Re: Optimal Sample Rate
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2004, 10:13:15 PM »

Why do you suppose that?  48 is closer to 60 than 88.2 is!

Nika
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Danman

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Re: Optimal Sample Rate
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2004, 10:57:35 PM »

SHEESH! Whatever .....
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danlavry

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Re: Optimal Sample Rate
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2004, 05:38:19 PM »

Danman wrote on Wed, 17 November 2004 02:49

I'm not assuming anything. My A/D (and I think many of them) only supports 44.1, 48, 88.2, and 96. 88.2 would be a good choice, it seems.

Dan


Defining the optimal, amounts to finding a compromise point between various considerations. In the case of sample rate for audio, the main consideration is the ear bandwidth. Personally, I do not believe that people hear much above 20KHz, but there are some claims (however fuzzy) that we can “feel” 26KHz or slightly higher. Of course testing such theories requires use of microphones and speakers with higher than normal bandwidth…

So the theoretical answer is 40KHz for the “pragmatic”, 60KHz for the “open minded”.
But a theoretical sample rate does not yield a practical solution, because it calls for theoretical “brick wall” filters – perfectly flat pass-band to say 20KHz, total rejection above 20KHz. Clearly we need to have some practical margin, for real world filters.

In the “good old days”, that filter “near brick wall” requirement was directed towards the analog anti aliasing filter. We currently use the concept of over sampling. The front end of  AD’s is operating at higher rates, thus the requirement for the analog filter (for anti aliasing) is greatly relaxed. Over sampling, however, does not solve it all. The requirement has been shifted from the analog AD front end to the digital side at the back end – the decimator.

Assuming a FIR type filter (for linear phase), using a 44.1KHz sample rate places some constrain on the AD decimation filter, it does take some significant compute power to perform the final decimation stage. There we pass 20KHz but block everything above 22.05KHz. In fact, a pass band is defined as a -3dB point – we really have only half the power at 20KHz! Does it matter? It does for some young ears and for exceptional ears!

48KHz improves the above situation. Say we use the same decimation filter that we used for 44.1KHz. The -3dB point (half power point) is now moved up by about 1-2KHz, but more important is the fact that we have virtually no loss at 20KHz. We now have flat response to over 20KHz.

There is a potential improvement going to 48KHz, and indeed one could argue a need to go to slightly higher frequencies. There is too much to say here for a single post. I am not aware of any REAL issues calling for greater than about 60KHz sampling. This is not a precise figure, perhaps 55KHz-65KHz is tight enough.  

But we do not have such rates. Much of the real world is still locked into 44.1KHz, and some to 48KHz. For those that wish for a “positive margin”, 88.2KHz and 96KHz do make sense, because they are X2 multiples of 44.1KHz and 48KHz. A X2 multiple offers some value. An 88.2KH can be converted down to 44.1KHz at relative ease. The same is true for 96Hz to 48KHz. Such sample rate conversion is much easier than say 60KHz to 44.1KHz, though it may become a non-issue as sample rate conversion keeps improving.

Much of the sonic improvement going up to higher rates is due to the compounded effect of all the gear in the chain. Say your mic has a half power point at 20KHz (bandwidth). What does it do at say 18KHz? (there is some loss there as well). Add a speaker with say 20KHz bandwidth. Now your 20KHz is much lower, and the 18KHz is more impacted. Add an AD operating at 44.1KHz to the chain… Pretty soon and it does not take a golden ear there to notice the impact on flatness response…

It may be good to increase the AD sampling rate to around 60KHz. Is it wise to go a bit over 60KHz, given that the standards are in fact 88.2 and 96KHz. Going faster presents some negatives. Faster means compromising the accuracy, increasing the amount of data and increasing the required processing power (DSP).


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stark

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Re: Optimal Sample Rate
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2004, 08:47:03 PM »

Thanks Dan for the great info!  Am I correct to assume that, since final delivery is 44.1 for CD, either 44.1 or 88.2 is better to avoid excessive conversions?  I would like to be at 44.1. Is the decimator issue a really big problem for 44.1?  Would you prefer straight 44.1 over 48k down sampled to 44.1?  

thanks
Adam Stark
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bobkatz

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Re: Optimal Sample Rate
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2004, 08:53:43 PM »

Keith Johnston, engineer, critical listener, and converter designer, of Reference Recordings and Pacific Microsonics and PMCD fame, did a long series of listening tests and objective tests between the tradeoffs of phase shift, group delay, transient response of practical filter design, and other aspects and came to the conclusion that 88.2 kHz sampling is the minimum rate that does not have an audible compromise.

Take what you will, but that's why I'm lobbying for nothing more than 96K! As Dan said, it's the filters that make the difference.

BK
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Nika Aldrich

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Re: Optimal Sample Rate
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2004, 10:57:34 PM »

Just for the sake of anecdotal completeness, Paul Frindle has also done significant testing and has stated that, as a designer, he wishes that the sample frequency were higher, but that he has succeeded in providing audible transparency at 44.1kS/s.

I've never seen anyone criticize his ears nor his testing methods.

Nika
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Level

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Re: Optimal Sample Rate
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2004, 02:50:11 AM »

I can do stellar @ 16/ 44.1K...but, I like that other levels are available to work with. I find that dynamic exsersizes in the 192K range and 96K provide for decent transfer to 44.1K. BUT!!!

Although it is contested, I choose to work within the realm I have to deliver. Some of my mastering is *24/192 for DVD-A. If I know the recording will be used with DVD-A @ 24/192K, I record at that rate.

I find "converting" is worst that "doing" if you get my drift..

I can record at *16/44.1 and deliver there and make it work. If I know I am doing a production that will be delivered at 24 bit (whatever fq) then I would rather record at that point.

For multitrack, 24/96 or above is essential.

Caveat:

*2 channel recording/and render.
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bobkatz

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Re: Optimal Sample Rate
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2004, 06:32:32 PM »

Nika Aldrich wrote on Wed, 17 November 2004 22:57

Just for the sake of anecdotal completeness, Paul Frindle has also done significant testing and has stated that, as a designer, he wishes that the sample frequency were higher, but that he has succeeded in providing audible transparency at 44.1kS/s.




Does that include audible transparency when going through multiple stages of processing, including mixdown and mastering?

Long ago I reached the conclusion that I could make an excellent (perhaps even "audibly transparent") direct to digital recording at 44.1 kS/S, but if I have to remix, process, or otherwise take that recording down through multiple generations, the cumulative losses take their toll. We must take multiple generations into consideration when determining the optimal sample rate.

BK
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stark

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Re: Optimal Sample Rate
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2004, 07:33:41 PM »

I want to track at 44.1/24, bring each track out individually to mix analog.  Is there a benefit to higher sample rates under this senario.

Adam Stark
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