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Author Topic: Pro Tools LE vs TDM  (Read 14668 times)

niknitrous

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Pro Tools LE vs TDM
« on: October 24, 2004, 04:41:52 AM »

Hi all, my dillema is the advantage or lack of, for trading up to a digidesign HD rig if I am only ever recording one signal at a time.  Am I better off sticking with the M-box and by-passing the pres and converters with Avalon 737, and Apogee or Universal Audio Converters s/pdif into 'Tools.  Once in the digital domain, what is the advantage of TDM over LE, if any.  My theory is that by by-passing the low grade M-box hardware the signal path is the equal if not better than the HD 192 I/O.

Cheers Nik Cool
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malice

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Re: Pro Tools LE vs TDM
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2004, 11:20:54 AM »

[crab basket mode on] ...


malice

niknitrous

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Re: Pro Tools LE vs TDM
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2004, 04:00:23 AM »

Huh??
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malice

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Re: Pro Tools LE vs TDM
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2004, 07:45:40 AM »

Let me explain this to you niknitrous.


niknitrous wrote on Sun, 24 October 2004 10:41

 My theory is that by by-passing the low grade M-box hardware the signal path is the equal if not better than the HD 192 I/O.




Stating that PT RTAS is equal if not better than HD is a bit like going to a Harley convention with a Suzuki bike.

Among the great crab basket subjects in professional audio forums you can count :

- 2 inches tape vs Protools
- Nuendo vs Protools
- Radar vs Protools
- Mixerman famous Protools bass lite problem
- Protools summing buss vs Analog summing buss
- Protools faders not at unity problem
- 48 bit fixed vs 32 (64) float
- 192 vs 96 vs 48 or 44.1 kHz
- Protools 24bit pluggin buss limitations

and the very famous : Digi 001 (or 002 or M-box) sounds better than TDM systems ...

Very Happy

Funny as hell to realise that most of these essential (I'm teasing you here) subjects that caused numbers of member banishments, that caused some ugly wars with incredible name callings and even got entire forums to close are 99 % of the time a subject where PT is more or less directly the center of discussions (and when I say discussions ...)

Hence my [food fight mode on]

in all good humor of course, I'm not the least the trouble maker some believe I am

Very Happy

malice



niknitrous

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TDM & LE
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2004, 03:30:07 AM »

O.K I see why they call you malice.  Thanks for setting me straight on the taboo subjects of audio forums, I guess it must get pretty boring hearing the same old pardigms over & over.

Maby we should try getting a life now and then eh?

nitrous
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bobkatz

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Re: Pro Tools LE vs TDM
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2004, 10:02:20 AM »

malice wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 07:45




Stating that PT RTAS is equal if not better than HD is a bit like going to a Harley convention with a Suzuki bike.





Can you use your real name, Malice? With a name like that, it implies confrontation all the time.

Anyway, to "confront" you, what exactly do you mean? Are you advocating the audible or technical superiority of Pro Tools HD over Pro Tools RTAS (LE, I assume)? If so, why?  How do you reach this conclusion?

BK
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malice

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Re: Pro Tools LE vs TDM
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2004, 10:25:57 AM »

bobkatz wrote on Tue, 26 October 2004 16:02

malice wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 07:45




Stating that PT RTAS is equal if not better than HD is a bit like going to a Harley convention with a Suzuki bike.





Can you use your real name, Malice? With a name like that, it implies confrontation all the time.


No I can't, my real name is public, everyone can either read it in my profile, and I like my handle as it is.

Quote:


Anyway, to "confront" you, what exactly do you mean? Are you advocating the audible or technical superiority of Pro Tools HD over Pro Tools RTAS (LE, I assume)? If so, why?  How do you reach this conclusion?

BK


I might not have used enough smileys for you Bob, may I quote myself :

"in all good humor of course..."

I thought I was clear enough, I was just referring to the incessant discussions about PT RTAS vs TDM, I personally don't have any interest in discussing the veracity or the reality of this subject.

If you carefully read my second post, you can clearly see the tongue in my cheek ...

see ...


As for being or not confrontational, I suggest you read some of my posts here and at the Marsh Wink

best

malice
OK Bob, I'll sign THIS one with my real name, tss tss tss

Denis Moulin

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Re: Pro Tools LE vs TDM
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2004, 11:21:23 AM »

niknitrous, i have hd3, 001 and the mbox.

if track count is an issue, obviously you have to go with hd. but if you can deal with 32 tracks, i would say by by-passing the m-box input for another, well depending on what it is, it could be considered in the same ball park.

on the issue of rtas versus tdm, i feel rtas has it's thing happening in a good way, but it is just slightly different then hd. not better in a real obvious manner. it's really not even worth a conversation.

so, here's what we have.

hd= lots of tracks and dsp and as many inputs as you want.

oo1 or 2= more inputs then m-box, but pretty close the same amount of dsp.

m-box= an unconventional monitoring set up and only 2 inputs. but it offers great portability when used with a laptop.

as for plugs, rtas are cheaper to buy, tdm cost at least double, so that will come into play.

i've owned just about every plug, so my plug recommendations would be:

urs fultec for eq. blows BF and UA out of the water. the urs api is cool to, but the fultec beats it.
mcdsp filter and compressor bank and analog channel.
the digirack stuff is vey useful, believe it or not.
dverb. not the best, but very functional. all the reverbs are just ok but some are not worth the price of admission.
get the izotope vinyl plug for free because it is fun.
all the sound toys stuff is good to fx stuff.
also, lofi is very useful to give heavy gtrs and electric bass an analog vibe.

as for the sony eq or the massenberg eq. they are both very clinical and surgical. if you like this sort of thing i would lean toward the massenberg. but it's really hit or miss with these eq's. not because they suck, but because you really have to know what your doing from the get go, from the beginning of tracking to the end. if you are not a precision
guy, i would not get these plugs.

hope that helps.


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R. Steele

bobkatz

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Re: Pro Tools LE vs TDM
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2004, 01:37:28 PM »

Sorry, Dennis, I think I completely misread you. I would need the context of all your posts to get to know you, and I must admit I haven't the time to add MARSH to my list....

Sorry,


BK
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There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

malice

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Re: Pro Tools LE vs TDM
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2004, 02:49:07 PM »

bobkatz wrote on Tue, 26 October 2004 19:37

Sorry, Dennis, I think I completely misread you. I would need the context of all your posts to get to know you, and I must admit I haven't the time to add MARSH to my list....

Sorry,


BK


It's cool Bob,

I fully understand you are a busy man Wink

Nevertheless, you are welcome at the MARSH where I try to contribute humbly to  a nice and very "civilized" beginner forum. I would be honored to have you there, even on rare occasions.

Be assured of my sincere respect and camaraderie Smile

malice

niknitrous

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Re: Pro Tools LE vs TDM
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2004, 11:21:33 PM »

Hi Ron, thank you for actually addressing my question!  Yes that was helpfull.

Quote:

if track count is an issue, obviously you have to go with hd. but if you can deal with 32 tracks, i would say by by-passing the m-box input for another, well depending on what it is, it could be considered in the same ball park.


Trackcount is not an issue for me, plus I am only ever tracking overdubs. So two inputs is all I need.  Do yo feel that if I create a nice front end eg, Brauner valve mic> Avalon mic pre> UA 2192 converters> s/pdif into PT LE. Would I be justified in calling this a 'pro' set-up. (leaving monitoring, acoustic environment etc, which are obviously important aside for the moment.) Or is that because I do not have the TDM hardware it will never be fully pro.  My main goal is to get the highest quality sound into the DAW.  I'm not really going to use plug-ins that much.  Once the tracks are done I'll probably take them to a HD equipped studio to mix.

Thanks again

Nik





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Rail Jon Rogut

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Re: Pro Tools LE vs TDM
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2004, 03:12:40 AM »

You'd be better off with an 002 system...

a) The 002 can handle higher sample rates via the S/PDIF input
b) The 002 has Low Latency Mode
c) The MBox Mix knob for latency control is only for the analog input

You'll find that your work flow will be better using the 002 system.

If you require more than 32 active voices or some of the higher end TDM only plug-ins (or expanded feature set of Pro Tools TDM)... then you'd require an HD system.

Rail
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Re: Pro Tools LE vs TDM
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2004, 11:12:06 AM »

hi nik,

yes i would agree that is a pro setup. rail also has a point, but when you consider the fact that CD's are still 16/44k, higher sampler rates are still just an esoteric discussion. my feeling is there is a big difference when you are working at  the higher sampler rates, but why not just get it right
where it going to end up anyways. plus an 002's on board pres won't give you what your proposed signal chain will. so you would still need to spend more.

keep in mind the m-box monitoring is workable but odd, but if you are
comfortable with the way you work with it now, who cares.



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R. Steele

Loco

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Re: Pro Tools LE vs TDM
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2004, 05:27:21 PM »

niknitrous wrote on Tue, 26 October 2004 23:21

Do yo feel that if I create a nice front end eg, Brauner valve mic> Avalon mic pre> UA 2192 converters> s/pdif into PT LE. Would I be justified in calling this a 'pro' set-up.

My main goal is to get the highest quality sound into the DAW.


To acomplish that goal the first thing is to get rid of the weakest link on your chain, which is the Avalon mic pre. Stay on Universal Audio's land or Focusrite ISA series or if you can afford it Millenia's pastures.

Also, producers and women are like gas: they will use all the space you will give them. You may find soon that 32 tracks are not enough. They are not for modern Pop or R&B. It's simply absurd having a machine capable of running the race to the moon and not being able to run more than 32 tracks because of a greedy design.

That being said, you're better off not going PT LE at all. Either put more money on an HD system or go Native with any other major DAW around. Call it Logic, DP, Cubase, Nuendo, Live, whatever. Live a life without restrictions.
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niknitrous

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Re: Pro Tools LE vs TDM
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2004, 09:01:10 PM »

Quote:

c) The MBox Mix knob for latency control is only for the analog input


Quote:

keep in mind the m-box monitoring is workable but odd, but if you are
comfortable with the way you work with it now, who cares.


O.K so how would i get low latency using the s/pdif inputs for tracking.  Concidering Sometimes I use Amplitube amp modeler on an aux input, then bussed to the 'record' track. If it not possible to use the mix knob. I was thinking of using the Makie big knob, as a central monitoring solution.  Any thoughts..

Quote:

To acomplish that goal the first thing is to get rid of the weakest link on your chain, which is the Avalon mic pre. Stay on Universal Audio's land or Focusrite ISA series or if you can afford it Millenia's pastures.


Yeah i have been hearing(or at least reading) that a fair bit lately, about the avalon 737.  One quote was even "the behringer of high end audio".  Now that seems to be going a bit far..

What do you think about the new UA LA-610.  

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