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Author Topic: Uses for Neumann KM86?  (Read 43479 times)

Will Russell

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Uses for Neumann KM86?
« on: September 21, 2004, 07:56:02 AM »

Hi,

I recently scored a pair of Neumann KM86s (w/ consecutive serial #s) and I find that I rarely use them, often choosing a KM84 instead. What to you folks use them for? What do you think are their best application?

Klaus, what market do you think they were designed for?

I will continue to try them in various situations but I figured you folks might give me some ideas of application in which they are likelyy to really shine.

All the best,
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Will Russell
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Fifthcircle

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2004, 01:06:47 PM »

I love KM-86s...  I find that I like them more than 84's whenever given a choice.  The low end, especially seems better on the 86 (perhaps because of the 2 capsule design?  Klaus?).  Add to that the fact that you can get multiple patterns and I find it to be a very versatile mic.

Basically, I do acoustic music so it is always used for micing ensembles and occasionally as spot mics.  I like them on woodwinds, piano, cello, sometimes violin...  In a jazz situation, I got a great acoustic bass sound with one (of course the player was Christian McBride and even a radio shack mic probably would have sounded good on him)....

--Ben
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Benjamin Maas
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2004, 01:37:58 PM »

Benjamin sums up well common uses for a KM86.

The mic has a sound of its own, and does not share all that much timbre with the KM84, despite using the same capsules. Smooth and gentle comes to mind.

A lot of the acoustic energy, particularly in the high frequencies, is deflected by a quadruple screen before it reaches the diaphragms.

The direction of the capsules, vis a vis the mic body, the acoustic effect of the head basket's size and shape, the proximity of the rear facing capsule, the four mesh screens before the diaphragm all contribute to the unique sound of the KM86.

For addiional info, please go into the archives. We had a very informative thread on the KM86 a while back.

Kind regards
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Klaus Heyne
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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2004, 01:27:37 AM »

Will Russell wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 07:56

What to you folks use them for? What do you think are their best application?


Main use for me is Overheads on small rooms. Installed right now over a DW kit with Zildjan Cymbals, and I barely have to use other mics other than the kick and snare one. Helps using this loud drummer, though.
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Carlos "El Loco" Bedoya

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Mark Lemaire

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2004, 04:05:45 AM »

I have a pair that I use in my classical sessions quite often. In omni on choir or piano. In card as a soloist spot. Occasionally in omni as a main pair. Even tho' many would point out that the largish distance between the capsules make for a deeper than usual drop in highs at the sides, sometimes the sound is just right as a main pair anyhow, so I do it.

I have found them generally a bit noisier than my U67, M269, and DPA 4003 pairs. On really quiet material they may not work well for this reason. Also I have had buzzes and RF problems with them in some theaters at random times- usually only as the lighting guys start playing with dimmers 10 minutes before showtime...

In studio they work well in fig 8 on the guitars of singing guitarists. The null on the side is especially deep. Point that at the mouth and it will help reject the VX.

I also have a pair of KM84s and the 86's (in cardiod, naturally) are similar but different-- in ways I find hard to verbalize. Perhaps it's all the physical capsule mounting & screen things that Klaus listed....

does this help?

Mark Lemaire
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Mark Lemaire

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Plush

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2004, 01:42:06 PM »

We like them as a spot mic on the treble strings of a piano.
Position is at the height of the lid on the left side, looking down. Excellent mic!  
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Hudson Fair
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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2004, 02:10:44 PM »

Didn't the later Motown recordings used KM86s on just about everything?  Let me know if you want to sell them!

Al
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Mark Lemaire

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2004, 04:07:36 AM »

I recall Bob Ohlsson saying that Motown had a lot of KM86s, but he also made it clear that Motown had plenty of other mics in those years as well. Perhaps he'll chime in here regarding what instruments the 86s wound up on most often?

Also- for all you folks posting that the mic is 'good on this and that', can you specify what pattern you use on a given application, or should we just assume cardiod? I happen to love it in omni, even given the rather distant capsule spacing....

ML
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Mark Lemaire

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2004, 05:55:27 PM »

One of those microphones many engineers do like, but taken out of production years ago. The main parts from which it was made are still produced, and used in the KM 184, k84 capsule. I would not mind a re-introduction of this mike.  

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DanDan

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2004, 04:18:32 PM »

A very useful mic. The switchable pattern is very useful. Omni for a group of harmony singers. Figure of 8  for M/S recordings.  Choir, Overhead Drums, even acoustic guitar. Works very well with KM84 but also with other cardioids. I believe it was designed to have full bass frequency response in the distant field.  I have often seen it used here in Ireland by RTE, the national broadcast organisation, for Orchestral recordings. Great on mandolin. The only downside is the noise floor which is not the best.
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Will Russell

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2004, 09:13:25 AM »

I have used my KM86s in figure 8 pattern, x-y setup for my last 2 drum tracking sessions and Oh My G-d! What a beautiful image of the kit. I placed them in front and above the kit, facing the snare, on axis with the kick and snare.

I think I'm in love.
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Will Russell
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2004, 08:44:14 PM »

Beginning around 1968 we had virtually ALL KM-86s. I began bringing in my own mikes in order to force them to buy more of a variety.  I did this mostly as a means of learning to use other mikes because the handwriting was on the wall that Motown had outgrown Detroit and would be leaving.

The 86 hasn't got the low frequency roll-off that an 84 has. They really need shockmounting and pop screens. Given that, they sound amazing. I sure wish I had a pair!

Mark Lemaire

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2004, 03:55:26 AM »

Bob-

Thanks for your post!

Are you saying that many/ some/ any (?) of our favorite Motown hits were made using KM86 mics exclusively, including vocals?

Was the KM86 ever used for lead VX, in your recollection?

Also: Was the bass generally recorded DI or miked in those days at that studio?

Thanks!


Mark Lemaire


PS: if I ever sell my pair, I'll think of you first!
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Mark Lemaire

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Karl Winkler

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2004, 02:20:35 PM »

ErikS wrote on Tue, 19 October 2004 22:55

One of those microphones many engineers do like, but taken out of production years ago. The main parts from which it was made are still produced, and used in the KM 184, k84 capsule. I would not mind a re-introduction of this mike.


Actually the KM86 and KM84 used the K84 capsule, but the KM 184 uses the K40 derived from the KM 140. It has a slight peak at 9kHz wheras the K84 does not have this peak.

There is also the effect of the larger, more complex grille basket on the KM86, resulting in HF response that is somewhat different than that of the KM84.

It was perhaps 5 years ago or so that I learned of a pair of black-finished KM86 that were NOS at Neumann (!) I shopped them around but I think the steep asking price kept them from being sold at the time. I don't know what became of them.

-Karl

Bob Olhsson

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2004, 03:07:54 PM »

Ever? A KM-86 was used for virtually ALL Motown lead and BG vocs. between 1968 and 1972.

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2004, 12:49:11 AM »

I have a pair which I love.  Especia;;y good on acoustic guitar about 6-8 inches from neck-meets-body area in cardiod.  So far my fave for this purpose.  They are a tiny bit noisy, tho.  I you want to sell yours, please let me know.  AND WHERE ARE THOSE NOS BLACK ONES???
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itsudemo

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2004, 03:52:14 PM »

For what it's worth (no pun intended) all the guitars on Neil Young's "Heart Of Gold" were done with KM86s (except the steel, which was a U87) - not a bad recommendation for a mic, IMHO.
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Mark Lemaire

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2004, 01:21:58 AM »

Itsudemo-

A very interesting bit of information!

In keeping with this forum's policies, could you tell us who you are, and if you were not the engineer for that session, please cite your source/ how you know this info to be true.

On top of THAT, do you know what pattern the 86 was set to for these tracks? I find that the 86, like many multipattern mics, has a totally different sound when switched from card to, say omni. I don't want to assume that it is used in cardiod unless stated to be so.

best regards

Mark L
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Mark Lemaire

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Mark Lemaire

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2004, 01:23:54 AM »

Bob Olhsson-

Do you have any info on what pattern Motown's 86s were mostly used on? For vocals, shall we assume cardiod?

sincerely

Mark L
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Mark Lemaire

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David Satz

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2004, 12:00:02 PM »

Mark, one thing's for sure: the "omni" and figure-8 settings of the KM 86 don't work as specified in close proximity to a sound source, because of the spacing between the dual cardioid capsules under the grille. Neumann used to recommend a minimum miking distance of 1 meter when using the KM 86 in those patterns.

--best regards
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2004, 06:30:08 PM »

We used all three patterns. Myself, I've always been a fan of using figure-8 mikes. There wasn't any problem I heard using omni or figure-8 a few inches away from something. The off-axis response in all patterns is lots more uniform than most mikes I've used.

If I wanted to use all the same mike today, I can't really think of anything that would work as well as those KM-86s did! I know RCA bought a bunch of them too but I have rarely seen or heard of any KM-86s since leaving Motown in 1972.

Klaus Heyne

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2004, 01:23:15 AM »

It has long been my opinion that the true quality of the superb K84 capsule system shines in a mic whose body does not, like the KM84, represent an acoustic obstacle to smooth processing of sound.

The KM86's capsule orientation- perpendicular to the mic's body- is preferable for smoothness of response and bass pop susceptibilty.

Its basket shape and volume, while not especially large, is big enough to nicely avoid short wavelength reflections, those in the highly audible upper mid range.

All in all, a most underrated mic which many orchestras and music institutions cherish.
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Klaus Heyne
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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2010, 11:02:23 PM »

By 1970 Crystal Sound in Hollywood was doing most L.A. Motown sessions and vocals would have been done on Telefunken U47, or an 87. No KM86s were used there.
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John P. Fischbach

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2010, 06:23:29 PM »

As David Satz already mentioned, the omni and figure-8 settings of the KM 86 don't work as specified in close proximity to a sound source. When using the km86 in Figure of 8 only a few inches away from a source, it probably reacts more as an omni with a lot of proximity effect than as a figure of eight. Sure it will give a very special sound.

I would not call the patterns that very uniform, the figure of eight is on its side very sharp, that it is not useable for MS stereo. At least when you don't like a sharp sound, and highend roll-off when switching to mono. Lately I have worked several times with the KM86/76 in MS mode, and it was very dissapointing.

The big advantage of the KM86 is in the fact all patterns have the same low end response, something you will not see with small single membrane capsules or large membrane double membrane capsules, but you pay it off with a very inconsistant polar pattern for the high frequencies.

Klaus is right, the extra grid makes it less sensitive for pop sounds, but you pay it with a more rippled frequency response, so dips and peaks. I doubt if the KM86 is less sharp than the KM84. Both are very universal microphones. Purists would probably choose for the KM84.

Schallfeldnebel

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2010, 06:28:39 PM »

I was going to say ... without having a dual membrane, you don't get that darkness in fig 8, or the brightness and low end roll off in omni.  Makes it an attractive option in some situations for that reason.
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Schallfeldnebel

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2010, 06:36:02 PM »

The problem with the KM86 is not the brightness on axis, it is the brightness off axis, at 90 degrees.
Look at the polar pattern, it is not dead on the side for high frequencies, which means in MS, you get a high frequency mono component into your image caused by the side microphone. Not really a good option.
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Eric H.

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2010, 08:02:12 AM »

I recently recorded 2 chamber music concert with my km86i pair and in 2 different rooms.
I used a spaced pair in omni pattern. What I do noticed is that in the 2 cases, I needed to process the sound in M-S. The M component is very smooth and sounds great and full. The S component needed some cutting in the 2-3kHz.
Is this something normal with this model?
I found the mics to sound great on piano, but a little gritty on strings.
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eric harizanos

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2010, 09:43:03 AM »

I do not know why you had to process a recording made with an spaced omni pair of KM86's using MS mode. Did you use an elliptical EQ? The KM86 is simply not that useful as S microphone in MS mode. Also Bloomline probably will fail, because it will also add sharpness of axis.

The KM86 simply has no homogen polar pattern in figure of eight. At 90 degrees for the highmids and highs, basically you have hardly any damping. This causes a high mono component and the sharpness in MS mode.

A microphone alike the KM86 for classical music would be the most useable when it would have two amplifiers on board, one seperate channel for capsule. It would give you the possibilty to change the polar pattern by mixing the channels together.

Schallfeldnebel

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Eric H.

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2010, 11:33:11 AM »

Hi,
I used a omni spaced pair but at playback found that some notes got nasty harmonics and the soundfield was not homogenous enough. I eq'ed in M/S mode to cut some high mids in the Side component and rise the high end in the M component. It does the job but I am a bit disappointed with this mic's behaviour. Does the KM88 has a more constant pattern? Probably should get myself a pair of schoeps though.

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DavidSpearritt

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2010, 05:43:16 PM »

Yes, I had a KM86 for about 8 years but sold it, because I didn't like anything I used it for in classical music recording.

It was too noisy, it didn't work well as side mic in MS (imaging accuracy collapsed, and tonally weird), I didn't find it tonally accurate as a spot mic, and it was no good in a coincident main pair, due to noise, and funky off axis response.

I wanted to like it, but couldn't.

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2010, 03:11:45 PM »

The KM86 is a cheap "radio U87". Three switchable diagrams. Because of the extra grid it could be easily used as anouncer microphone. For music recording it is handy in between two harps. If you use it in figure of eight it does not have bass roll-off like most single small diaphragm figure of eights. I don't think it is really usable as part of a stereo main pair.

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2010, 04:07:34 PM »

Schallfeldnebel wrote on Wed, 20 January 2010 06:11

For music recording it is handy in between two harps. If you use it in figure of eight it does not have bass roll-off like most single small diaphragm figure of eights.


We have different experiences. One thing I have found that you DON'T want between two harps, is bass response. Harps are some of the "boomiest" instruments to try to record.

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2010, 07:00:51 PM »

But even like that, for a chamber music, 2 or 3 instruments, I got a pretty nice sound out of them by carving a bit the frequency in M/S (2dB max cut or boost).
The mic still gives pretty good results for studio use or spot mic in cardioid.
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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2010, 07:45:31 PM »

DavidSpearritt wrote on Sat, 23 January 2010 05:07

Schallfeldnebel wrote on Wed, 20 January 2010 06:11

For music recording it is handy in between two harps. If you use it in figure of eight it does not have bass roll-off like most single small diaphragm figure of eights.


We have different experiences. One thing I have found that you DON'T want between two harps, is bass response. Harps are some of the "boomiest" instruments to try to record.



I have had similar experiences with harps as you mentioned above. It depends also very much on the situation and music if such set up works. I simply used my filters and EQ's.
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Mark Lemaire

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2010, 03:23:30 PM »

DavidSpearritt wrote on Sat, 16 January 2010 22:43

Yes, I had a KM86 for about 8 years but sold it, because I didn't like anything I used it for in classical music recording.

It was too noisy, it didn't work well as side mic in MS (imaging accuracy collapsed, and tonally weird), I didn't find it tonally accurate as a spot mic, and it was no good in a coincident main pair, due to noise, and funky off axis response.

I wanted to like it, but couldn't.


I have a pair of 86's that are not noisy, but they have been modded by Klaus. That said, before modding they were about each as quiet as a KM84. Perhaps the 86 you used, David, had a problem? Sounds like it may not have been up to spec. Of course, I wasn't there...

I like using them, in cardiod, as choir spots. I also use them in omni or card as room mics for choir or acoustic guitar. In a recent string quartet session, they were placed (omni) some 40 feet from the players and mainly served as reverb mics. No noticeable noise in this potentially very troublesome situation.

In studio I like to use them (in fig eight) on singing acoustic guitarists. The wide spacing of the front and rear capsules create a deeper than average null spot, which I point at the vocalist's mouth. This allows reasonable vocal rejection on the guitar mic.
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Mark Lemaire

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Re: Uses for Neumann KM86?
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2010, 02:48:02 PM »

Hi Mark,
Good to hear you have found some uses for your pair of KM86's.
I acquired a pair a couple of years ago, and though they don't come out that often they can work very well when they do so. In the right situation they can be good woodwind mics, orchestrally, but very useful as solo spots for a bit of gentle enhancement in chamber recordings, especially with odd selections of instruments in quirky layouts, and most useful, I find, as little spots in a choral / vocal situation where the fig8 pattern can be very handy.

AVI
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