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Author Topic: wide cardiod flanking mics / Schoeps or Gefell  (Read 8439 times)

Offline Dennis OShea

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wide cardiod flanking mics / Schoeps or Gefell
« on: January 04, 2012, 11:40:26 am »
Hello
I'm looking to purchase a pair of flanking mics for my Decca Tree.  The tree currently consists or 3 Josephson 617's with the Gefell capsules.   Has anyone had a chance to compare the Gefell M 297 and the Schoeps wide cardiod. It seems impossible to get a demo. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Dennis

Offline Kai

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Re: wide cardiod flanking mics / Schoeps or Gefell
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2012, 04:57:58 pm »
Although I do not know where the "flanking mic's" of a Decca Tree are positioned, and I do not know the sound of the Josephson 617's/Gefell combination, I can comment on the general sound of the Schoeps wide cardiod.

They do sound quite hard when used in the mid to far field, with some lack in the bass range.
In this position their sound does NOT combine the advantages of cardiod and omni IMO, more the disadvantages.

They do sound very good as close spot mics, e.g. on a tenor sax or close to the sound boad of any stringed instrument, except violin.

Isn't the (original) Decca Tree build around Neumann M50's, that's SD aluminium omnis mounted into a sphere?

I would try B&K aka DPA 4003 / 4006 with the sphere that can be stuck on them.
To me this is the mic that comes closest to the original idea.

If you need something directional I would try the Schoeps CCM4 (or a CMC6/MK4 combi), a mic with an extremly balanced, sweet sound, the best representation of the typical Schoeps sound quality.

Regards
Kai
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 11:47:50 pm by klaus »

Offline gkippola

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Re: wide cardiod flanking mics / Schoeps or Gefell
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2012, 08:13:11 pm »
I use Shoeps cmc6/mk4 as flank mics quite often.  Their non colored off axis sound are a blessing, and also because of this they work well for live sound . One spot mic goes a long way because of it.

Offline klaus

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Re: wide cardiod flanking mics / Schoeps or Gefell
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2012, 11:59:16 pm »
This may not be the usual recipe for flanking mics in conjunction with a Decca tree, but several name-brand scoring guys in L.A., as well as the folks at Lucasfilm's scoring stage use large diaphragm mics for that purpose- in both cases KHE's which are tuned fairly bright for this job.

Maybe the sheen and stage-width perception is represented well when doing it with a fairly lively set of LDCs, as it would be with bright small diaphragm condensers.

From what I hear from people who use M50s professionally in Decca trees, they rarely use additional M50s as outriggers.

P.S.: I assume, with "flanking mics" you mean the same thing as Decca tree "outriggers"?
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks®
www.GermanMasterworks.com

Offline Kai

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Re: wide cardiod flanking mics / Schoeps or Gefell
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2012, 10:00:58 am »
I assume, with "flanking mics" you mean the same thing as Decca tree "outriggers"?
Are these spot mic's for instruments that aren't loud enough?
In Germany we call those "Stütz-Mikrofon", translates to "supporting-mic".

Those are usually cardiods, but I had good results with omnis too.
They sound more natural when going close, and can integrate better into the mix.

Or is it something like this:
http://books.google.de/books?id=E0uy8adetQoC&pg=PA471&lpg=PA471&dq=flanking+mics&source=bl&ots=9MTiAgZQVa&sig=2PLUK4NztUxT7yjHiBj1TReygZg&hl=de&sa=X&ei=PLsFT5jeIczAtAbW-NmCDw&sqi=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=flanking%20mics&f=false

(first hit on the Google search for "flanking mics")

Then I would use the same like for the tree for best results.

Regards
Kai
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 10:16:39 am by Kai »

Offline John Willett

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Re: wide cardiod flanking mics / Schoeps or Gefell
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2012, 09:38:50 am »
For a Decca Tree I would use the Gefell M221 or the Neumann KM133 - both these have metal diaphragms (nickel for the Gefell, titanium for the Neumann) and both have ball heads (the Gefell has a choice of two sizes).  The KM133 has the same capsule as is in the TLM50/M150.

Offline didier.brest

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Re: wide cardiod flanking mics / Schoeps or Gefell
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2012, 06:32:41 pm »
Are these spot mic's for instruments that aren't loud enough?
In Germany we call those "Stütz-Mikrofon", translates to "supporting-mic".

Those are usually cardiods, but I had good results with omnis too.
They sound more natural when going close, and can integrate better into the mix.

Or is it something like this:
http://books.google.de/books?id=E0uy8adetQoC&pg=PA471&lpg=PA471&dq=flanking+mics&source=bl&ots=9MTiAgZQVa&sig=2PLUK4NztUxT7yjHiBj1TReygZg&hl=de&sa=X&ei=PLsFT5jeIczAtAbW-NmCDw&sqi=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=flanking%20mics&f=false

(first hit on the Google search for "flanking mics")

Then I would use the same like for the tree for best results.

Regards
Kai

Flank microphones are not spot microphones. They are located in front of the orchestra at both flanks nearly on the same line where is also the main pair (or the Decca tree). Picture from Handbook of Recording Engineering, John Eargle.

Didier Brest

Offline AlexVI

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Re: wide cardiod flanking mics / Schoeps or Gefell
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2012, 05:05:12 am »
I suspect when this post was first written, the option for Schoeps "flanking" (also known as 'outriggers') mics of the wide cardiod variety would have been the MK21.
It may be worth now investigating the new MK22 (albeit narrower than the MK21).

That said, I would typically expect that all five mics in a Decca Tree arrangement to be (a) omnidirectional and (b) the same.
(sometimes with something different and directional as the centre mic, circumstances depending).
I'd expect the same in a four-mic 'tree' (or AB plus outriggers).

Usual suspect for microphones in an orchestral situation - aside from "the" Decca 50's, of which not many remain - might be Schoeps MK2S (or H), or DPA 4006. Also Neumann TLM-50S, and other variants on a theme. Of course, one can also add 'balls' (or spheres) to the Schoeps omnis or the DPA's.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 05:29:04 am by AlexVI »

Offline Jim Williams

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Re: wide cardiod flanking mics / Schoeps or Gefell
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2012, 01:02:03 pm »
Schoeps sub-cardiod capsules do sound smooth and nice, off axis is also smooth. However, the Schoeps bodies tend to sound a bit thin and un-focused in the deep bass region. They used .1uf Wima MKS-02 mylar coupling caps into a 100k load. That reduces low end depth and adds extra phase shift. Enlarge those values and bass improvements are heard.

Any quality cardiod large diameter mic can easily be converted to wide cardiod. You just tap off about +20 volts from the polarization circuits and apply that voltage to the rear diaphram. A pair of resistors dividing the +60 volts polarization voltage will do this. Add a switch and it's reversable. Add a pot and it's variable.

Offline klaus

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Re: wide cardiod flanking mics / Schoeps or Gefell
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2012, 03:07:34 pm »
Great of you to mention this, Jim. An especially easy and convenient conversion in some Neumann and AKG mics with DC converters.
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks®
www.GermanMasterworks.com

Offline Jim Williams

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Re: wide cardiod flanking mics / Schoeps or Gefell
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2012, 12:13:05 pm »
I'm a bit suprised that some mic makers havn't used that as a marketing tool. Rode did make a mic that had a pot for pattern "tuning", but other than older tube mics, it's not a feature you see offered in modern fet mics.

A pot can be used to tune from omni to cardiod with zero to + 60 volts. Reverse the polarization voltage polarity (-60 volts) and you can vary the pattern from cardiod to hyper cardiod to figure 8 or anything in between.

Other features I would expect to be offered someday include a variable high pass filter. That is easily done with a couple of bipolar transistors, a couple of caps, some resistors and a dual reverse log pot for 'tuning'.
Throw in a variable pad using an adjustable polarization voltage and all perameters are then adjustable.

Imagine only rolling off the low frequencies you want instead of a pre selected value. Imagine only padding the exact amount you need to prevent overloads without excessive padding that degrades the mic's signal to noise ratio.

This is one of the reasons I build my own mics here. I don't have to depend or wait on other designers to make futuristic stuff I want today.

Maybe MXL will offer this?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 11:37:45 am by Jim Williams »

Offline J. Mike Perkins

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Re: wide cardiod flanking mics / Schoeps or Gefell
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2012, 06:47:34 pm »
If you buy the Innertube Audio tube U87 conversion kit for your Neumann U87, the patterns are continuously variable via a pot on the power supply, sort of like an M49.  I have the kit and it turned my 1970's U87 into an excellent wide cardiod mic which would work great in this type of set up.  The tube conversion also adds some depth to the sound of the U87 and is very interesting.

Offline Peller

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Re: wide cardiod flanking mics / Schoeps or Gefell
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2012, 10:35:15 am »
I have a Pearl (PML) ST-8, which is a stereo mic from the 1970s that has pattern controls on the power supply. When I bought it these were pots that allowed both capsules independently to be freely varied all the way from omni to fig-8. Unfortunately the pots proved troublesome in use so have since been replaced by nine-position switches.

The current Pearl ELM-A goes one further and allows you to record the signals from the front and back of the capsule separately, so they can be combined to your taste afterwards.