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Author Topic: When to reverse polarity  (Read 12154 times)

Extreme Mixing

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When to reverse polarity
« on: August 27, 2004, 05:00:48 AM »

I did some recording with a U47 this past week.  The producer wanted to check out what the sax would sound like with two mics.  I don't really like that sound myself, but hey, what are you going to do?  Anyway, in setting up the second mic, I realized that the 47 was wired pin 3 hot.  My question is, should I flip the polarity on the 47 when I am recording?  Or does it even make a difference if it's not directly out of polarity with another mic on the same source?  I could also flip it when I'm mixing, but to tell you the truth, the sax sounded great, no matter the polarity.

Thanks,

Steve Shepherd

Klaus Heyne

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Re: When to reverse polarity
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2004, 12:06:48 PM »

Yes, the sax should sound great by itself, no matter what the
polarity of the mic.

But keep this in mind, before you decide to leave the mic polarity reversed from the norm:

1. You will hear the reversal any time you have a combination of direct sax  sound and monitored sax sound

2. You will hear the reversal of your mic's polarity any time you record with more than one mic in the same acoustic space, where another mic (which is polarity correct) can pick up the sax's sound, even at low levels.

3. If you are an audiophile of the highest Platinum level (Signature class- special concierge privilege) you will hear and would want to observe absolute polarity.

A case in point: I polarity check the signal of my electric guitar and bass routing so that the positive spike of a DC pulse generated at the instrument's pick up moves the cone of the loudspeaker out, toward me. I find this to be a more immediate, and emotionally more gratifying, response of the system than the other way around.

Kind regards.
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Klaus Heyne
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Extreme Mixing

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Re: When to reverse polarity
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2004, 12:57:10 AM »

Thanks Klause,

If it were my mic, I would open up the power supply and change the wiring on the xlr jack.  I'll mention it to the producer and see what he says, but I'll also bring along a phase reversed mic cable that is clearly marked for use on that mic.  I guess I'm a member of the audiofiles club, because out of phase rarely gets past me.  It feels like some is shoving carrots in my ears and twisting them in opposite directions.  Not very pleasant.

Thanks for the information.

Steve Shepherd

Bill Yacey

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Re: When to reverse polarity
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2004, 02:19:42 AM »

I find it interesting that some people claim to be able to hear and determine absolute phase without a reference. How can the ear determine a positive pressure wavefront from an acoustic instrument or an electric one for that matter? Phase changes numerous times with distance to the source being varied, so I don't understand what the absolute reference is with only one mic being used. Two mics, yes you now have a reference, one mic , none. If all mics were wired pin 3 positive swing with positive diaphragm pressure would they sound any different?
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: When to reverse polarity
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2004, 02:52:06 AM »

Good critical thinking. Thank you.
You may be correct. Or not. I was careful to note the conditions under which it is mandatory to pay attention to phase/polarity all contained audible or other  tangible references in real time:
additional mics, or the moment of the stroke of a pick on a string.

Beyond my personal experience there are people who insist on the absolute polarity claim outside of a reference experienced at the time.

I think, there may be something there, even if I have no logical explanation:
Have you ever soloed a mic/instrument in a mix, flipped the polarity switch on the instrument's channel and noticed that the timbre of the instrument changes?

Let's investigate this further.
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Klaus Heyne
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Scott Helmke (Scodiddly)

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Re: When to reverse polarity
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2004, 08:55:21 AM »

Thinking in terms of instrument mechanics, what would you expect to get from a microphone?  

For the most part regular sustaining sounds wouldn't matter, although with bowed instruments you do see a sawtooth wave with the polarity depending on which way the bow is moving.  For most of the other instruments I guess you'd see the initial attack showing up as important.  But... say if you've got a mic above a drum and the drummer hits the drum, would that initial hit be a positive or negative spike at the microphone diaphragm?  How about a mic under the drum?
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David Satz

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Re: When to reverse polarity
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2004, 10:21:41 AM »

Bill, hooray for your skepticism regarding this question (how people can claim to distinguish correct from incorrect absolute polarity without a live reference), but it does have a real-world answer. A small but significant fraction of the listening population can in fact correctly sense the absolute polarity of an audio signal on percussive sounds such as bass drum without a live reference for comparison--more or less as most people can generally tell whether something is green or red without holding up a printed color sample for comparison (but some people cannot), and a different fraction of the population can identify the pitch of a tone without an external reference. It isn't necessarily a matter of "golden earhood" as such, however. Some people who can identify correct signal polarity are not what we would call highly skilled listeners, just as some musicians who have "absolute pitch" aren't very good singers or instrumentalists; they are simply people who can hear that particular distinction clearly.

I don't know whether any experiments have been done to find out whether people can train themselves to hear absolute polarity or not--that would be interesting. All I know is that I don't seem to hear it. So I try to be careful to record in the correct polarity for the sake of those who can. Most professional audio equipment does preserve absolute polarity--but it's still worth testing, or else one's recordings will (literally) suck when they shouldn't.
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Bill Yacey

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Re: When to reverse polarity
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2004, 01:12:47 PM »

I imagine for some low frequency percussive sounds phase might be distiguishable. with higher frequencies the phase changes many times over a very small  distance between the mic and sound source. What if the violinist starts with an up bow or down bow, or the guitarist starts picking the string upwards or downwards? I am not sure that anyone could determine a difference in this case...
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David Satz

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Re: When to reverse polarity
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2004, 01:46:17 PM »

Bill, it's the attack transients of certain instruments, where the peak-to-average ratio is very high, that seem to be the main issue for people who can hear absolute polarity. They're really a form of noise--not smooth, continuous sine waves. But even some continuous waveforms produced by musical instruments are markedly asymmetrical as well, such as a trumpet with a "Harmon" mute.

This sometimes creates other technical problems as well. A microphone, preamp, recorder, or processor may be perfectly well able to handle a given sound pressure level or voltage on a continuous basis, but if the waveforms (for that same SPL) are severely asymmetrical, then the peaks in the positive-going direction or in the negative-going direction can exceed expectations. This in turn causes DC offset, and may cause asymmetrical clipping or other distortion on half of each cycle.

In turn that creates a situation in which phase distortion can sometimes be "heard" indirectly--not because the ear is particularly sensitive to phase distortion as such (mostly it isn't), but simply because any equipment can being pushed into audible overload on peaks. And the amplitude of any signal peak depends not only on the amplitude of its signal components, but also on their relative phase. If you want to consider slew rate limiting, that can fit in here as well.
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Bill Yacey

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Re: When to reverse polarity
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2004, 06:30:57 PM »

It sure does David, I appreciate your insight. I didn't consider assymetrical waveforms on my previous post; but I am still skeptical about this being an audible artifact when concerned with frequencies above 200 Hz. It would be interesting to conduct some blind listening tests to see if some people can actually determine this above low end frequncies.
Bill Yacey
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volki

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Re: When to reverse polarity
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2004, 06:48:17 AM »

if I may drop my 2 cents here...

David, can you give some sort of reference for your claim that some people are supposed to be able to hear absolute polarity? Doesn't the human ear rather function by averaging incoming soundwaves? At least that's what I can back up by briefly looking into one of my textbooks.

However, it could be that, if not the phase itself, secondary effects caused by it are audible under certain circumstances, e.g. the effects of amp's, loudspeakers, and even the ear itself. Take e.g. a class A amp stage: provided that the signal amplitude is large and reaches the end of the linear region of the amp - distortion products of the upper end of the region (related to a positive wave) could yield different distortion products than the lower end (related to a negative wave) (this could be backed up especially for tube amps by Hamm's article you mentioned in the xformer/xformerless thread). A similar phenomenon could go for the forward / backward excitation in loudspeakers by a sufficiently large amplitude. Also the ear might be affected by this phenomenon, where it might vary individually - which would explain why some people would be more sensitive to it.

Of course these considerations would only be valid if the signal is non-symmetrical - meaning the slope in the positive area differs significantly form the negative - because otherwise there wouldn't be a difference in slope when the signal is reversed (I hope I didn't express myself too complicated). Another effect which could blur the afore mentioned ones is the response characteristic of room in the playback environment...

Does this make any sense?
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Volker Meitz

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Re: When to reverse polarity
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2004, 04:31:53 AM »

I feel a long post coming on, so I apologize in advance to all the subscribers with dial-up connections. I also apologize if it comes across as didactic, but I feel like spending some text on describing the terms "polarity" and "phase" before I even start commenting on the initial question, or the other points that have come up as the thread developed.

Polarity and phase aren't the same thing, and I prefer to be careful how I use the terms. It helps me keep clarity in my thinking, which is a challenge at the best of times. Many people in our field use the terms rather interchangeably. I guess it isn't technically wrong to say that when something's 180 degrees out of phase when it's reversed polarity, but I don't think it helps keep the issues straight if we toss the terms around loosely.

Imagine if you will, a loudspeaker some distance from a listener. (The listener could be a microphone.) The loudspeaker is fed a pulse such that the initial movement of the cone is outward, toward the listener. The first part of the waveform radiated toward the listener will thus be a compression wave, that is an increase of pressure. Of course that's followed by a rarefaction, or decrease of pressure, and the positives and negatives keep alternating until the sound dies away. Now imagine that we turn the loudspeaker around 180 degrees so it faces away from the listener. When we feed it the same pulse, the cone moves away from the listener first, and the first part of the waveform approaching the listener will be a rarefaction, or decrease of pressure. We could accomplish the same thing by reversing the connections to the loudspeaker. That's polarity. We haven't changed anything having to do with time, only direction.

Now imagine two loudspeakers side by side. We feed a low frequency tone to both loudspeakers. They're wired the same, so they are producing positive pressure changes simultaneously, and negatives simultaneously, and the output of the two speakers adds nicely. It's easy to imagine what happens when we reverse polarity of one speaker, whether we do it acoustically (by turning the speaker around) or electrically (by swapping the wires.) But what happens when we move one speaker ten feet farther away? We haven't changed direction; they are still producing positives simultaneously, but the positives aren't reaching our listener simultaneously. The positive from the farther speaker is reaching our listener about 8.8 ms later than the same positive from the near speaker. We have introduced a shift in time, and now we are in the realm of phase.

There's a lot to talk about when we start considering phase relationships (and phase is always a relationship.) But the thread started with polarity, so let's stick with that for a while.

Starting with Steve's question about how to handle a mic that's wired pin 3 hot, when the standard for mics is pin 2 hot: you said, "the sax sounded great, no matter the polarity." In this case, that's your answer. However, I think the owner of the mic would be well advised to rewire it. There will be plenty of times it gets used in conjunction with other mics in the same room at the same time, and it's good engineering practice to start with everything in a standard condition. Klaus has (in other threads) suggested that every studio should have a polarity popper, and use it to get the whole system consistent. I wholeheartedly concur. There are enough things to do on a session without worrying about unintended polarity reversals.

There can be good reasons to reverse the polarity of a mic when you're using it in conjunction with other mics. Just to give one example: I was fortunate enough to learn from Fred Catero, one of the all time greats. He insisted on checking the polarity of each mic on a drum kit by ear, once he had them all reasonably well placed. It's easy to do...just flip the polarity switch on the console, one channel at a time, while the drummer is playing. You'll immediately hear that one way's fuller, the other way's thinner. Generally the fuller way is preferred. As you'd expect, when you've got one mic on top of a snare pointing down and one underneath pointing up, you'll almost always wind up flipping one. But you might be surprised to find out how often the kick mic is out from the rest of the kit.

Now on to the other topic: is correct polarity audible, or what? As David Satz pointed out, the actual waveforms of some musical instruments are asymmetrical, meaning that the positive-going part of the wave is different from the negative-going part. He mentioned the muted trumpet, and indeed that's one of the most exaggerated cases. In the mastering lab I always have the scope on, so I'm spending hours each day looking at waveform displays of music. I have come to the realization that asymmetry is very common. I almost always see it in vocals. Generally it's noticeable in all wind instruments. Occasionally I see something that's an electronic artifact from defective equipment, but mainly I'm talking about properly recorded stuff.

So music can be asymmetrical...can we hear that? Before getting into that, let me say here that I don't understand Bill Yacey's comments: "Phase changes numerous times with distance to the source being varied, so I don't understand what the absolute reference is with only one mic being used...with higher frequencies the phase changes many times over a very small distance between the mic and sound source." My understanding is: if a sound source puts out a pulse such that the first part of the waveform is positive-going, the initial arrival will be positive-going at one inch, at one foot, at ten feet. If I'm missing something, please explain.

Anyway, my experience with listening for polarity is: I hear a difference sometimes, under some circumstances. The more coherent the speakers, the more likely I am to hear it. When I tried on mid-80's JBL four-ways, where the crossovers flipped polarity at every crossover point, well...no. When I listened on Auratones...probably the first phase-coherent speaker that was widely used in studios...yes, I could hear it fairly often.

When I have heard a difference, and when I've had a preference, and when I've been able to determine which way was presenting it in the same polarity as the natural sound, I found that my preference had usually been for the polarity that matched that of the natural sound.

By the way, if you say you don't hear it, I'll be the last guy on earth to argue with you. But if you say I don't hear it, I have to ask, "How do you know?"

I try to keep polarity consistent in my recordings, but it can get complicated. The first time I got really interested in this was when a colleague, Elliot Mazer, decided to check the whole chain in a studio where I was working at the time. This was a big multi-room facility, so it was a big job, but the results were interesting. Generally the polarity remained consistent throughout the system in each room, and from room to room...it was a very professionally built studio, and in those days just about everything was balanced, so we didn't run into problems from a lot of balanced-to-unbalanced connections. The surprising thing happened when we checked the tape machines. They all gave back the same polarity we fed them...either in input or off tape. But when we moved the tape from one machine to another and played it back, it was anybody's guess how it would come back. All 24 tracks would be the same polarity on any one machine, but it was a crapshoot whether it was the same polarity as the machine that had recorded the tape. And these were machines from one manufacturer. They thought it was important to make it consistent on throughput, but they didn't have a standard for what polarity they were actually printing on tape. I realized then that as a project moved from room to room (or if the tape machines got swapped around for any reason) that we'd be putting down overdubs that may or may not have been in the same polarity as the basic tracks. Of course it was already common at that time for a record to be done in a bunch of studios in different cities, so the polarity of all those tracks would be pretty well randomized by the time tracking was done. Play one of those recordings and flip the polarity (of both channels simultaneously of course...we're not talking about left vs. right here) and either way should be about half right.

Well, I've rambled enough for one post. Better save the rest for the box set.
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Paul Stubblebine

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Extreme Mixing

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Re: When to reverse polarity
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2004, 04:45:09 PM »

Very interesting stuff.  Thanks for turning this thread into a very interesting read.  I think microphones are among the most musical sound EQs on the planet.  Just changing it's orientation to the source is a very powerful creative tool.  I always get a chuckle when I hear engineers say that they "never use EQ, they just work with the mic, or change it".  EQing is exactly what they're doing, whether they realize it of not!

Anyway, thanks again.

Steve Shepherd

Yannick Willox

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Re: When to reverse polarity
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2004, 12:34:17 PM »

I have a test.wav (don't remember where I found it, but it's a very asymetrical soundfile) that you can play on your studio monitors, but my setup is on the road for the moment, so I cannot upload it for now.
This wav file was designed to prove that unperfect speakers clearly sound different when you flip the polarity.

On my monitor setup there is barely a difference, but there still is. So my guess would be, a good mic or amp nor our hearing care about absolute polarity. But the way your speakers will play the signal will change. If you think about it, this is quite obvious, especially at high spl and low frequencies (when your woofers start to move a positive pressure will augment the cabinet volume and vice versa).
Also, flipping the polarity on a sub not only changes the interaction with the main speakers, but in my experience loads the room in a different way.

My conclusion would be, it is mainly in the replay chain that polarity matters.
So, on the recording end there is only one thing to do : make sure the playback chain has correct polarity, and then mix&flip until we like the sound ?
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: When to reverse polarity
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2004, 10:11:33 PM »

Yannick Willox wrote on Mon, 06 September 2004 09:34


My conclusion would be, it is mainly in the replay chain that polarity matters.
So, on the recording end there is only one thing to do : make sure the playback chain has correct polarity, and then mix&flip until we like the sound ?


I disagree, from experience. I deal almost exclusively with microphones and encounter polarity reversed microphones, oftentimes when someone had reason to solder around on the audio connectors and cabling, and messed up, due to lack of knowledge how to easily test for corrrect polarity.

In the end, only a polarity-correct record AND playback chain will yield optimal audio.

So, for God's sake, spend the $150.- and buy a polarity tester! (You may even finally detect the reversed speakers in your 10-speaker car stereo!)
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Klaus Heyne
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