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Author Topic: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset  (Read 25393 times)

zmix

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Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2011, 01:56:52 am »

mgod wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 00:33

Oh OK, then - I'm just using a pc running iTunes. Good to know. Curiosity satisfied.


Dan, how different than a computer reclocking data from memory is the memory player?

mgod

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Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2011, 02:57:51 am »

If they get their patents granted you can learn that for yourself. In the meantime you'll have to do what I do and use your ears. Assuming you care. Farris told you, Ross told you, David Bock told you. Why ask me?
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2011, 08:06:08 am »

zmix wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 06:56

mgod wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 00:33

Oh OK, then - I'm just using a pc running iTunes. Good to know. Curiosity satisfied.


Dan, how different than a computer reclocking data from memory is the memory player?



It isn't.

I notice that Nova have removed a lot of their supposed explanations of what they are doing from their website, shame, I'd love to go over that "white paper" again.. but what's left is largely marketing BS still.

Before anybody jumps in with stuff about hearing it, I BELIEVE YOU when you say your ears tell you it sound great.

But my brain (allied with a lifetime learning about this stuff), means that I don't believe THEM as to the reasons.

It's not that they're talking about stuff that's beyond me, it's that what is written is either written by someone who doesn't know the subject, or assumes that noone else does. To an outsider in any field it can be hard, or indeed impossible, to distinguish between someone who is building on current knowledge and taking it beyond where it currently is, and someone who doesn't have a clue (or does but chooses to spout BS)... to an insider it's often blatantly obvious.
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mgod

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Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2011, 11:45:23 am »

Jesus, Jon - do you spend all your time reading and believing webpages? My guess is you spend none at all. I am neither an insider nor an outsider on this one, but trust me or don't, on this one you are very much an outsider. I don't care how many millienia you have on the topic. First, use your ears. If they tell you this thing is exactly the same as some off-the-shelf computer running iTunes, then we have nothing to discuss. One of us is living off-planet. If they tell you that you are experiencing something you haven't before, which so far everyone on this forum who has heard it has experienced, then you might have an obligation to yourself, not to me or to the people selling this thing, to try to understand what is afoot.

I don't look at the site that has you guys so freaked out any more than I look at ads in magazines, but I'm pretty sure it exists for one reason - to get the people who are the audience for it, people willing to spend serious cash to have a great time listening to music at home, interested enough to seek it out. I.E. not you. But notice that every time I mention the thing Chuck jumps in here with some critique of the advertising, yet even though he lives in the biggest city in the world where he could almost certainly find one to hear, he has made no effort to do it. So what should I conclude - we have a small group of people who simply know better, even though the world keeps changing. It must feel great.

Jon, you imply a position that all that can be known is known (and by you), therefor there is nothing new. Fine, you are an insider. You do understand this is not my loss, right? I have the thing and am enjoying it every day. I don't sweat hi-res downloads like all the audiophiles do. I get that experience now from standard red-book. The world of digital has changed, I listen to it every day, I'm reporting it to you for your benefit, and you and Chuck and now Andy insist that it can't be true. Dan Farris, Ross, and David have heard it, said it, but no, you guys say it can't be. You haven't heard it and say it simply can't be anything other than iTunes. OK. For you, the thing doesn't exist. You know better.

I give up. I'm going to listen to some music on my non-existent magic box on my magic speakers. I'm listening to some of Ryan Moore's Twilight Circus mp3s right now - but if you guys tell me this is what iTunes sounds like on a computer, I guess you must be right. (I do have iTunes on it, btw).

I'll re-iterate: anyone on this forum - with one exception - is welcome here to prove to themselves how run-of-the-mill this thing is.

I will say, I've always been surprised how little professionals care about this sort of thing. Its all of a piece to me. I love playing music, recording music and listening to music, and want every part of that to be as deep an experience as I can make it. If I can listen to McCartney or Casady with a similar sense of proximity that I get with my own work, or by sitting next to my own amp, I'm happy. Its been my best teacher.


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Jon Hodgson

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Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2011, 12:19:48 pm »

mgod wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 16:45

Jesus, Jon - do you spend all your time reading and believing webpages?


Well I'm talking about their webpage, no I don't spend much time reading it... I read what they put up in some detail back when you started raving about it, and I looked at it briefly (there's much less to see) when a link was posted earlier in this thread.
As for believing their webpage, I spend no time at all believing it.
Quote:

My guess is you spend none at all.

Not quite sure what you're saying there
Quote:

I am neither an insider nor an outsider on this one, but trust me or don't, on this one you are very much an outsider.

In my circle of people who actually understand the subject that Nova Physics choose to make claims about, I'm very much an insider
Quote:

 I don't care how many millienia you have on the topic. First, use your ears. If they tell you this thing is exactly the same as some off-the-shelf computer running iTunes, then we have nothing to discuss.

IRRELEVANT to my position.

Which part of "I BELIEVE YOU" (about the sound) did you not understand?

zmix asked a specific question about a specific technical claim, which I answered. It could be the most miraculously great sounding unit in the history of the universe and that claim would still be bullshit.
Quote:

 One of us is living off-planet. If they tell you that you are experiencing something you haven't before, which so far everyone on this forum who has heard it has experienced, then you might have an obligation to yourself, not to me or to the people selling this thing, to try to understand what is afoot.


I am trying to understand, I would be delighted to get my hands on a unit and investigate what is actually happening. What I do know is that someone who can't get the basics of red book and reed solomon right (the stuff they used to have on their page was so riddled with errors it was ridiculous) has not pushed that aspect any further
Quote:


I don't look at the site that has you guys so freaked out any more than I look at ads in magazines, but I'm pretty sure it exists for one reason - to get the people who are the audience for it, people willing to spend serious cash to have a great time listening to music at home, interested enough to seek it out. I.E. not you.

So, what you're saying, is that it is ok for a company to publish any claim they like, no matter how dishonest or incorrect it may be, just to get people to try their device?

Sorry, but I expect more integrity from people in general, and my fellow engineers in particular.
Quote:

 But notice that every time I mention the thing Chuck jumps in here with some critique of the advertising, yet even though he lives in the biggest city in the world where he could almost certainly find one to hear, he has made no effort to do it. So what should I conclude - we have a small group of people who simply know better, even though the world keeps changing. It must feel great.

So if someone points out that an advert for a unicorn sandwich (which is of course hugely expensive because unicorns are so rare) is dishonest because there are no unicorns, your response is "that doesn't matter, what matters is it's a delicious sandwich, taste it"
Quote:


Jon, you imply a position that all that can be known is known (and by you), therefor there is nothing new. Fine, you are an insider.

No I don't imply that, I don't even say it.

What I say is that the SPECIFIC claims made BY NOVA PHYSICS are incorrect.. never mind the things they claim to have improved, they can't evem get the current state of the science right.

I haven't said they haven't made a great unit, nor have I said they haven't done SOMETHING new or unusual that has benefited the sound, just that it's not what they choose to claim it is.
Quote:

You do understand this is not my loss, right? I have the thing and am enjoying it every day.

Great, and if it was worth whatever money to you to get that sound then that's wonderful.
What is not wonderful is misinformation being spread, whether through ignorance or willfull dishonesty to make a sale, about what they've done and why it sounds so good to  you.
Quote:

 I don't sweat hi-res downloads like all the audiophiles do. I get that experience now from standard red-book. The world of digital has changed, I listen to it every day, I'm reporting it to you for your benefit, and you and Chuck and now Andy insist that it can't be true. Dan Farris, Ross, and David have heard it, said it, but no, you guys say it can't be. You haven't heard it and say it simply can't be anything other than iTunes. OK. For you, the thing doesn't exist. You know better.


Well it's obviously not iTunes, I've seen the screen shots... there's something very familiar about that supposedly amazing CD writing software though.
Quote:


I give up. I'm going to listen to some music on my non-existent magic box on my magic speakers. I'm listening to some of Ryan Moore's Twilight Circus mp3s right now - but if you guys tell me this is what iTunes sounds like on a computer, I guess you must be right. (I do have iTunes on it, btw).

I'll re-iterate: anyone on this forum - with one exception - is welcome here to prove to themselves how run-of-the-mill this thing is.

I will say, I've always been surprised how little professionals care about this sort of thing. Its all of a piece to me. I love playing music, recording music and listening to music, and want every part of that to be as deep an experience as I can make it. If I can listen to McCartney or Casady with a similar sense of proximity that I get with my own work, or by sitting next to my own amp, I'm happy. Its been my best teacher.



But wouldn't the whole world of audio be better served if we knew WHY it sounds so good, rather than whatever the sales guys can think of to get you to listen?

Perhaps to you the only question that matters is whether or not it sounds good to you.

For me an equally important question is "Why does it sound so good?", and much worse than no answer is a wrong or dishonest one, because that moves understanding backwards.
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mgod

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Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2011, 12:46:05 pm »

"But wouldn't the whole world of audio be better served if we knew WHY it sounds so good,"

Yes, it certainly would. Maybe some day they'll talk about it, but certainly not til the patent thing is done. If it holds up it has implications for far more than audio.

In the meantime, no matter how much you may regard yourself as an insider, you're not. And the thing is vastly different from iTunes, which to my mind was a spectacularly silly question, but at least Chuck asked it with a certain naive honesty. You answered it - wrongly, inaccurately untruthfully - with an outsider's lack of knowledge. You said "It isn't". But it is. Its very possible the world has moved on past what you know - it has to happen to everyone eventually - and their advertising isn't going to tell you what's in the unicorn sandwich.

Its also possible that its all hooey, and they've simply figured out how to do all the conventional stuff right before anyone else did. That in itself distinguishes it from iTunes and would merit your attention. There's no point arguing over whether you believe me or not. I trust that you do. But you're attempting to authoritatively discuss something beyond your experience and your frame of reference is possibly antiquated.

I should say, btw, that despite all the claims about the amazing CD writing software, that I'm loading things into it w/out using it, and I have yet to be convinced that those files don't sound every bit as good.
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mgod

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Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2011, 12:56:38 pm »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 09:19

Perhaps to you the only question that matters is whether or not it sounds good to you. For me an equally important question is "Why does it sound so good?", and much worse than no answer is a wrong or dishonest one, because that moves understanding backwards.

Not the only question, but the most important one. Joseph Campbell said, "I don't need faith, I have experience." I need a LOT of experience to be convinced, and it has to hold up. Otherwise its not worth the effort to learn why it holds up.
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2011, 01:05:33 pm »

mgod wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 17:46

"But wouldn't the whole world of audio be better served if we knew WHY it sounds so good,"

Yes, it certainly would. Maybe some day they'll talk about it, but certainly not til the patent thing is done. If it holds up it has implications for far more than audio.

In the meantime, no matter how much you may regard yourself as an insider, you're not. And the thing is vastly different from iTunes, which to my mind was a spectacularly silly question, but at least Chuck asked it with a certain naive honesty. You answered it - wrongly, inaccurately untruthfully - with an outsider's lack of knowledge. You said "It isn't". But it is. Its very possible the world has moved on past what you know - it has to happen to everyone eventually - and their advertising isn't going to tell you what's in the unicorn sandwich.

You seem to be taking my response out of context... I was not saying it sounded the same as any other computer running iTunes.

I responded to Chuck's question
"how different than a computer reclocking data from memory is the memory player"
in the context of his previous comments, which is specifically referring to the claims about reclocking.

Now, if you're in a position to judge my knowledge on this matter, and thus accuse me of answering innaccuratetly and more insultingly, "untruthfully", then please elaborate.

We both know you're not.

Quote:


Its also possible that its all hooey, and they've simply figured out how to do all the conventional stuff right before anyone else did. That in itself distinguishes it from iTunes and would merit your attention.

Put a unit on the bench in front of me and I'll happily probe it, analyze it, listen to it and set up blind tests for it till I can find out what is going on.
Quote:

 There's no point arguing over whether you believe me or not. I trust that you do. But you're attempting to authoritatively discuss something beyond your experience and your frame of reference is possibly antiquated.

Dan, the stuff I'm talking about is not beyond my experience, this is what you don't grasp.

Let's say you've used a hundred microphones of a dozen different colours in your professional career, you know both from your technical understanding and your personal experience that the colour does not affect the quality.

Now someone brings in the most wonderful sounding microphone you've ever heard, or someone who's ears you respect tells you about one, and when you ask what makes it sound so good, they say "because it's red".

Now to someone who didn't have your experience, maybe this would seem possible, they might imagine something to do with light absorbtion or the weight of the paint or whatever.

You on the other hand, I suspect, would not be fooled for a moment. You'd possibly also be a bit offended by the inexperienced guy accusing you of having a dogmatic or ignorant position on it.


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Jon Hodgson

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Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2011, 01:15:17 pm »

mgod wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 17:46

"But wouldn't the whole world of audio be better served if we knew WHY it sounds so good,"

Yes, it certainly would. Maybe some day they'll talk about it, but certainly not til the patent thing is done. If it holds up it has implications for far more than audio.


When did they submit the patents?


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mgod

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Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2011, 01:18:58 pm »

Jon, Chuck asked how different it is. You answered, it isn't. Yet you have no way of knowing that. If untruthful is the wrong word to use to describe giving a wrong response that you have no way of providing reliably, I don't know what is. Then you bring up ideas liker inside and outsider. These are your answers, not mine. Get it on a bench, probe it, listen to it, study it, tell him its the same and I'll not argue the point. Answer authoritatively in a vacuum as if you're telling some truth, and, well...

I like the mic color metaphor - its a good one. I wish I could describe for you why it doesn't apply here, but I can't. Maybe because I'm just not smart enough on the numbers of the topic, and partially because, although I haven't signed any sort of NDA, I'm just not talking about what I know their particular line of investigation is.
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mgod

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Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2011, 01:21:12 pm »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 10:15

mgod wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 17:46

"But wouldn't the whole world of audio be better served if we knew WHY it sounds so good,"

Yes, it certainly would. Maybe some day they'll talk about it, but certainly not til the patent thing is done. If it holds up it has implications for far more than audio.

When did they submit the patents?


No idea, its not my business. My suspicion is, assuming they get their patents, they still won't do much about discussing this stuff, because who wants to spend all your money defending patents?
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mgod

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Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2011, 01:22:55 pm »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 10:05


Quote:

 There's no point arguing over whether you believe me or not. I trust that you do. But you're attempting to authoritatively discuss something beyond your experience and your frame of reference is possibly antiquated.

Dan, the stuff I'm talking about is not beyond my experience, this is what you don't grasp.

Jon, yes it is, this is what you don't grasp. From everything you've written about it, it is.
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2011, 01:29:37 pm »

mgod wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 18:21

Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 10:15

mgod wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 17:46

"But wouldn't the whole world of audio be better served if we knew WHY it sounds so good,"

Yes, it certainly would. Maybe some day they'll talk about it, but certainly not til the patent thing is done. If it holds up it has implications for far more than audio.

When did they submit the patents?


No idea, its not my business. My suspicion is, assuming they get their patents, they still won't do much about discussing this stuff, because who wants to spend all your money defending them?

If the patents are granted, then I can read them, in fact if the applications have been published, then I should be able to.

But I see no application filed either in the US or Internationally under "Nova Physics".

What's the name of the inventor? his name should appear on there, I could search for that.
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mgod

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Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2011, 01:32:31 pm »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 10:05

You seem to be taking my response out of context... I was not saying it sounded the same as any other computer running iTunes.

I responded to Chuck's question
"how different than a computer reclocking data from memory is the memory player"
in the context of his previous comments, which is specifically referring to the claims about reclocking.

Now, if you're in a position to judge my knowledge on this matter, and thus accuse me of answering innaccuratetly and more insultingly, "untruthfully", then please elaborate.

We both know you're not.

Lets try it this way - strictly in the limits of how you interpret Chuck's question (which btw is not how I read the question). Is there only one possible way of reclocking? Is it an absolute necessity that if the MP is reclocking data from memory that it has to be identical to iTunes?

I read Chuck's question more broadly. Only he could tell us what he meant. But even if we limit the interpretation to how you read it, to be truthful your answer has to mean that the the MP is doing exactly what iTunes does. Since you've never been inside it, that has to mean that there is only one way to do it. Have I got this right so far?
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2011, 01:38:45 pm »

mgod wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 18:32

Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 10:05

You seem to be taking my response out of context... I was not saying it sounded the same as any other computer running iTunes.

I responded to Chuck's question
"how different than a computer reclocking data from memory is the memory player"
in the context of his previous comments, which is specifically referring to the claims about reclocking.

Now, if you're in a position to judge my knowledge on this matter, and thus accuse me of answering innaccuratetly and more insultingly, "untruthfully", then please elaborate.

We both know you're not.

Lets try it this way - strictly in the limits of how you interpret Chuck's question (which btw is not how I read the question). Is there only one possible way of reclocking? Is it an absolute necessity that if the MP is reclocking data from memory that it has to be identical to iTunes?

I read Chuck's question more broadly. Only he could tell us what he meant. But even if we limit the interpretation to how you read it, to be truthful your answer has to mean that the the MP is doing exactly what iTunes does. Since you've never been inside it, that has to mean that there is only one way to do it. Have I got this right so far?


Reading from memory is reading from memory. It happens when the CPU clock cycles. It's also largely irrelevant because only one clock matters for audio quality (beyond obviously ensuring data integrity, but that's a catastrophic failure of clocking), that's the one that clocks the DAC. You could chop up your audio stream, put it together back to front, split it into a hundred pieces and send them all the way round the world twelve times by twenty different routes, and when you put them back together and played them back, it would sound the same.

Why? because only the timing of the samples clocked into the DAC, and thus only the clock that drives the DAC matters.
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