R/E/P Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset  (Read 18630 times)

Dominick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 580
Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2011, 08:01:37 am »

Hi Dan,

Knowing and working with David was one of the greatest chapters of my professional and personal life .
Up front, he'd tell you he didn't have answers, only temporary solutions. He'd draw you into a project he was working on, truly interested in your observations and opinions, even if you had little experience with the subject. If your observations differed from his, he wouldn't dismiss them, but file them away in the database he kept in his head, and keep you in the loop. One of the finest teachers I've known.

The Cello's are a bit of a legend here. The studio made a great investment in them in the early 90's (the days of unlimited budgets). After many hours of trying to explain what we needed the phono preamps to do, David realized Mark never would understand. So he modified the units to the studio's needs. 10 years later, with the exception of the David modified phono preamps, the Cello stuff was shunned. We got some good money for the tape machine electronics (thank you audiophiles!) when we sold them off at the big auction.

You're talking some beautiful gear there. When one gets into that strata, lots of preconceptions fall away. I've no significant listening experiences to gear of that caliber and even if I did, as you say, "one man's objectivity is another man's religious conviction".
Logged
Dominick Costanzo

Dominick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 580
Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2011, 08:02:55 am »

Oops! double post.
Logged
Dominick Costanzo

zmix

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2828
Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2011, 08:29:01 am »

I am a huge lover of perfectionism in audio and certainly there are some intensely driven individuals attempting to raise the bar, however, these claims for the Memory player are exceptionally vivid:
Nova Physics Group state on their website:

http://www.novaphysicsgroup.com/TheMemoryPlayer.html

The Memory Player Digital Drive enjoys the complete rereading and
memory purification capabilities as the full CD Playback System does,
which actively erases and replaces any detected dropped bits and
jittered areas.




"Memory Purification"? (Nam Myoho Rhenge Kyo... etc)

"Jittered Areas"?  (Hey! look! you can actually see that this CD has 'em!!!)

Seriously?

iTunes performs multi pass error correction functions as a matter of routine when reading a disc...and performs playback from (you guessed it!) memory...

Dominick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 580
Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2011, 11:28:09 am »

zmix wrote on Fri, 28 January 2011 08:29

....
"Memory Purification"? (Nam Myoho Rhenge Kyo... etc)
...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQnaXI4ARVs
"cheese melted enough for you, Meadows?"
Logged
Dominick Costanzo

mgod

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4020
Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2011, 12:09:40 pm »

What can I tell you, Chuck? Find one and listen. Shouldn't be hard where you are. I tried to find one in the Ballimer area for Bill to hear but it looks like there aren't any. Its like Daniel Farris wrote here a while ago; hearing mine taught him to stop trying to discuss what he hasn't heard. BTW, I met the builder of the Immedia stuff on that same 89 Hassell tour on which I met you. He came to the NYC shows that Brian mixed.

Dominick, the thing that really disturbs me is that I used the Theta for a decade in what we might call a normal way. Then I got a PS Audio Power Plant Premier. You can look it up and read about it. When I powered up my whole system, the first thing that happened was my daughter said "Dad - look at the TV." A 1989 32" Proton she grew up with. I can't tell you how, but it looked so much better. Clearer and apparently sharper even with the edge-distortion setting at minimum, and I could turn the white levels down a bit more, etc. An ancient CRT performing far better.

But the Theta was vastly improved. It didn't quite get air or the openness of the MP, but that annoying sense of a ceiling sitting on top of the sound was significantly ameliorated. All from changing the stability and THD of the sine wave of the AC feeding the system. And even though all this stuff has properly regulated power supplies. David Bock has one in his shop, Joe Gastwirt has I think 4 in his studio.

I don't have an opinion about LP vs. CD on cheaper gear, that's not my mission, which is to try to get to the point where I can't hear the medium. (When I met my wife she had a $1000 system on which LP, CD, cassette and FM all pretty much sounded the same. It was perfectly functional. But her LPs all still play 2 decades later.)

The MP gets me closer to that ideal than I've ever experienced. Farris, again, said it was like listening to the output of a console, from regular 16/44.1 files.

But the frustrating thing is you put on an LP and something ineffable about it is just more real. (Insert monologue on Quality from "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" here).
Logged
"There IS no Coolometer." - Larry Janus

David Bock

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 333
Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2011, 12:40:20 pm »

Audio-wise, the memory player really is like an off the console feed, unlike vinyl, tape (any size & speed), cd, & mpwhatever.
Operationally, so cumbersome that I would "pass" even if I had the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Bear in mind I'm not much of  a computer guy.

mgod

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4020
Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2011, 12:48:00 pm »

You get used to it. Its more cumbersome than putting a CD in a drawer, but not more than threading tape or cleaning an LP. I'm pretty fast with it now.

Allegedly, the newer ones are very much simpler - click and play. I might have one to play around with for a few days soon.
Logged
"There IS no Coolometer." - Larry Janus

zmix

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2828
Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2011, 04:15:50 pm »

mgod wrote on Fri, 28 January 2011 12:09

 ..... stop trying to discuss what he hasn't heard. BTW, I met the builder of the Immedia stuff on that same 89 Hassell tour on which I met you. He came to the NYC shows that Brian mixed.



I hear you, but I was only commenting on their website copy, which I actually HAVE read..!!   Razz

Tim DeParavicini

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 45
Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2011, 12:25:05 pm »

I am just going to throw in my pennys worth on the Elcassette
thing, I have rebuilt about 10 years ago about a dozen of the Sony EL7 and I also have the Teac top model as well as the Technics, However, the EL7 with 3 heads and 3 motors was very good but with my rebuild mods on the electronics, 7Hz to 35K within 2 dB. Wow flutter comparable with studio machines.
and decent SN with a 70 uSec time constant on 3 3/4 ips
It will copy a proper master tape with barely any degredation.
the top end will go to 15K at zero VU (200 nWb) so copies bright tapes without squishing. I store, all be it, with A Dolby
copies of masters that need the best 'Golden Ears' to spot the difference.

The format was actually developed by BASF as a convenient consumer system that Sony and Technics (National Panasonic)
developed for the market and launched in 1975. Sony even under the CBS Sony label put out very well duplicated music cassettes that made regular compact cassette appear awfull and also sounded better than most vinyl. The whole idea was for ease of use compared with open reel tapes. Editing was never intended.

It did not take off with the market because Nakamichi machines and metal tape got fairly close and was well entrenched in the market. Which leads me on to compact cassette, I remember at the Sound Clinic in the 80s That tests done on the Aiwa Excelar machine with metal tape, it covered 10 Hz to 20KHz in bog standard form and copying masters lost very little of the sparkle or detail with no noise reduction. The Aiwa machine was used to make client approval copies of EQed production tapes.

As to vinyl, The disc cutting system at Mobile Fidelity running at half speed will produce a final record that is sensibly flat from 5 Hz to 40Khz. If the finnished records are pressed from a 1 step process then they are extremely quiet. Don't forget that vinyl has half a giga hertz worth of molecules passing the stylus every second. Real fast sampling!

As for long life storage of music, If I cut a laquer and have it plated and without removing the nickel but putting the plated disc into a plastic bag and burying it for a thousand years it will still be in good condition, Let us see how long a hard drive or even solid state memory compares? Forget it! Even 10 year old DAT tapes or Umatic 1630 tapes fail.
Logged

mgod

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4020
Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2011, 01:28:21 pm »

Tim DeParavicini wrote on Wed, 02 February 2011 09:25

As for long life storage of music, If I cut a laquer and have it plated and without removing the nickel but putting the plated disc into a plastic bag and burying it for a thousand years it will still be in good condition.

Allegedly the Church of Scientology not only agrees with you but is counting on it.(Something about making sure the future race of Cockroach Overlords is clear.)
Logged
"There IS no Coolometer." - Larry Janus

Dominick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 580
Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2011, 04:09:13 pm »

One other side note on the Elcaset
RCA had something very similar in 1958
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCYX2eooEVo
Logged
Dominick Costanzo

TotalSonic

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3728
Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2011, 08:19:44 pm »

mgod wrote on Wed, 02 February 2011 13:28

Tim DeParavicini wrote on Wed, 02 February 2011 09:25

As for long life storage of music, If I cut a laquer and have it plated and without removing the nickel but putting the plated disc into a plastic bag and burying it for a thousand years it will still be in good condition.

Allegedly the Church of Scientology not only agrees with you but is counting on it.(Something about making sure the future race of Cockroach Overlords is clear.)


To clarify this - they do not use lacquer discs for their archival project of transferring L. Ron Hubbard's speech transferred to analog disc and placing them into time capsules with hand cranked turntables - but instead use DMM (Direct Metal Mastering - with a diamond stylus cutting into copper plated on a steel substrate).  I've heard rumors that they replate the DMM mothers with a more lasting substance like platinum but have not had this verified.  

Best regards,
STeve Berson

zmix

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2828
Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2011, 12:18:05 am »

Speaking of consumer indifference, Dr. Barry Blesser wrote an article (linked below)  about how the phenomenon that was the success of the CD format wasn't about quality, and in this excerpt shows how pervasive consumer indifference has always been... :

Dr. Barry Blesser writes in his paper "CDs Prove Secondary Features Matter" about the CD:

   As one of the fathers of digital audio in the 1970’s, my opinion was often sought on how this fledgling technology would evolve. Around 1980, I predicted that the CD would never be a commercial success. And my family reminds me of this prediction whenever they think that I need a dose of humility. However, the story is actually subtler and more complex than this simple quotation.
   
   To place my flawed prediction into its historic context, let us rewind the clock to the early 1960’s when the dominant means for distributing recorded music was the long-playing 33-rpm vinyl record. At that time, these records were produced in warehouse-like pressing plants, with technology designed in the 1930’s. A compressed air line at the periphery fed some 50 asynchronous stamping machines. Periodically during the day, all the machines would trigger at the same time, and the compressed air supply was grossly inadequate, being designed only for an average pressing load. Some 50 bad disks
   resulted. Moreover, record manufacturers were continually downgrading the quality of their vinyl stock in order to save money. There was no quality control on recordings produced.
   
   The technical manager at RCA in charge of pressings, well aware of the simplicity of improving quality, made a proposal to a senior VP to upgrade the pressing facilities with a corresponding increase in manufacturing cost of about $0.25 per disk. At that time, RCA had a policy of replacing any defective disk that was returned, no questions asked, and with that replacement came three free additional disks. The VP responded to the technical manager with a challenge: collect the statistics on returned disks as evidence that customers cared about quality recordings. To make a long story short, there were no returned disks. And RCA did not upgrade their pressing plants.

Andy Peters

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1124
Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2011, 08:03:37 pm »

zmix wrote on Fri, 28 January 2011 06:29

I am a huge lover of perfectionism in audio and certainly there are some intensely driven individuals attempting to raise the bar, however, these claims for the Memory player are exceptionally vivid:
Nova Physics Group state on their website:

http://www.novaphysicsgroup.com/TheMemoryPlayer.html

The Memory Player Digital Drive enjoys the complete rereading and
memory purification capabilities as the full CD Playback System does,
which actively erases and replaces any detected dropped bits and
jittered areas.




"Memory Purification"? (Nam Myoho Rhenge Kyo... etc)

"Jittered Areas"?  (Hey! look! you can actually see that this CD has 'em!!!)

Seriously?

iTunes performs multi pass error correction functions as a matter of routine when reading a disc...and performs playback from (you guessed it!) memory...


Bingo.

-a
Logged
"On the Internet, nobody can hear you mix a band."

mgod

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4020
Re: consumer indifference explained: Elcaset
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2011, 12:33:32 am »

Oh OK, then - I'm just using a pc running iTunes. Good to know. Curiosity satisfied.
Logged
"There IS no Coolometer." - Larry Janus
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up