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Author Topic: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)  (Read 12106 times)

DarinK

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2011, 06:57:56 pm »

Just a couple comments on the "freedom" issue.  I think things like better Social Security and health care for all would lead to a more free life.  How many decisions are based on wanting a decent retirement, or having decent health care?  Being a wage-slave is not freedom.

I just read a blog from Forbes (not exactly Socialists) which discussed the top countries for happiness/prosperity.   From the article: "Happiness means having opportunity–to get an education, to be an entrepreneur. What’s more satisfying than having a big idea and turning it into a thriving business, knowing all the way that the harder you work, the more reward you can expect?"
And, "They are all borderline socialist states, with generous welfare benefits and lots of redistribution of wealth. Yet they don’t let that socialism cross the line into autocracy. Civil liberties are abundant (consider decriminalized drugs and prostitution in the Netherlands). There are few restrictions on the flow of capital or of labor. Legatum’s scholars point out that Denmark, for example, has little job protection, but generous unemployment benefits. So business owners can keep the right number of workers, while workers can have a safety net while they muck around looking for that fulfilling job."

Here's the article:  http://blogs.forbes.com/christopherhelman/2011/01/21/new-ran king-the-worlds-happiest-countries/
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Tidewater

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2011, 08:02:51 pm »

jonathan jetter wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 18:38


we've worked ourselves into a situation where we employ a police force of halfwits and racists and frat boys who never grew up,

jon





Not everywhere, but HERE TOO! The politicians are no different. No training in anything, and WHOOP! There they is!

Nice suit!

Read this! (CC)

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PRobb

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Re: Roger Nichols Fighting For His Life, Needs Your Help
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2011, 11:27:40 pm »

YZ wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 07:08

FFoster wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 09:39


Yes, lets have the government run health care so it can be inaccessible to everybody.


That does not seem to be the case in several countries where there is a government-run health care structure.



Just to clarify, by "several countries" you mean just about every other developed, first world democracy on the planet.
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Fenris Wulf

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2011, 12:55:24 am »

wwittman wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 17:06

Fenris Wulf wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 09:20



The American people decisively rejected socialized medicine in the recent election. Perhaps you've been living in a cave and didn't hear about it.


Roger, and people just like him who worked all their lives and made a decent income, could DIE for the simple reason that he can't afford care.



As I have already said, government intervention and not "profiteering" is what made health care unafforable for the average person.

When the government tries to make a good or service "free," it artificially increases demand and destroys the basis of price competition, until the good or service becomes more expensive than it would be in the absence of subsidies. This is a basic law of economics and it cannot be circumvented by any amount of planning, no matter how intelligent or charismatic the planners are.

I see the same ignorance in regard to higher education. Last year, University of California students held demonstrations across the state to protest tuition fee increases. They never stopped to ask themselves WHY higher education is exorbitantly expensive; instead, they demanded that the cost be shifted to taxpayers. They thought they were demonstrating AGAINST the university bureaucracy, but in reality they were serving the bureaucracy's interests by agitating for more money instead of reform.

But we don't need to understand economic principles or cause and effect, as long as we have good intentions. Right?

I have little faith in the reports of Europeans and Canadians who say their health care system works. When people believe that a system is "fair" and "equitable," they are more willing to accept its shortcomings. They are willing to accept a very low standard of care, as long as everyone receives the same care and it's considered a "right." The same attitude can be observed in Americans in regard to public education.

Even in a system that is theoretially egalitarian, there can be wide variations in quality from one region to another, and the people who are lucky enough to live in one of the better regions will have a more positive impression of the system.
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Les Ismore

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2011, 01:13:24 am »

My wife is Danish. In Denmark everyone gets PAID to go to university. That's right they get a wage to attend university and all the courses are free. But of course they complain that they don't get paid enough.....



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Fenris Wulf

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2011, 01:24:23 am »

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Les Ismore

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2011, 01:26:40 am »

Fenris Wulf wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 21:55



I have little faith in the reports of Europeans and Canadians who say their health care system works. When people believe that a system is "fair" and "equitable," they are more willing to accept its shortcomings. They are willing to accept a very low standard of care, as long as everyone receives the same care and it's considered a "right." The same attitude can be observed in Americans in regard to public education. Even in a system that is theoretially egalitarian, there can be wide variations in quality from one region to another, and the people who are lucky enough to live in one of the better regions will have a more positive impression of the system.


I find it hard that anyone can honestly say that a system that bankrupts families and lets people die because they can't afford it is a high quality care. While nothing is perfect in this universe (Stephen Hawkings) I would take Canadian healthcare any day over the joke that masquerades as healthcare in the US. You can be sure that whenever Canucks travel in the states we carry extended health so we don't get caught in the trap you poor suckers are in.
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Jay Kadis

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2011, 01:49:04 am »

Fenris Wulf wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 21:55

wwittman wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 17:06

Fenris Wulf wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 09:20



The American people decisively rejected socialized medicine in the recent election. Perhaps you've been living in a cave and didn't hear about it.


Roger, and people just like him who worked all their lives and made a decent income, could DIE for the simple reason that he can't afford care.



As I have already said, government intervention and not "profiteering" is what made health care unafforable for the average person.
What government intervention are you talking about?

One health insurer alone sent $525 million in profit to their parent company in 2009.  Since 2004, that comes to $4.2 billion.  That would have bought a lot of health care we didn't get.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/23/business/la-fi-anthe m-cash23-2010feb23

Fenris Wulf

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2011, 02:10:51 am »

Health insurance is not a free market. It is a government-controlled cartel. The government mandates coverage for various illnesses and forbids price competition. Technically, the present system is fascism : private ownership combined with government control.

The government is playing an elaborate, decades-long con game. It interposes a vast bureaucracy in between doctors and their patients, funnels health care dollars into the pockets of unproductive bureaucrats, and blames the result on "capitalism" in order to justify further government intervention.

In a free market, the rate of profit for insurance companies would be roughly equal to the rate of profit for other industries (around 3%). Without government financing inflating prices, routine medical expenses would be paid out-of-pocket and medical insurance would be reserved for unexpected or catastrophic expenses.
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Tidewater

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2011, 02:20:23 am »

I would be for a healthcare reform that was catastrophic only, and not loopholed like the other regulations that make a real estate collapse, or a politician friendly with anyone, in a Biblical sense.

The problem with mandates (for me.. you too) is the moving goal posts. If we set a cap @ $10,000.00, a common cold will cost $11,000.00, and so on.

I still predict we all end up with lopsided boob jobs ($17,000.00), and a poorly vetted medical staff who barely speak English amputating our legs, when we were in for lopsided boob reduction. ($18,000.00)
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jonathan jetter

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2011, 02:50:48 am »

Fenris Wulf wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 02:10

Health insurance is not a free market. It is a government-controlled cartel. The government mandates coverage for various illnesses and forbids price competition. Technically, the present system is fascism : private ownership combined with government control.

The government is playing an elaborate, decades-long con game. It interposes a vast bureaucracy in between doctors and their patients, funnels health care dollars into the pockets of unproductive bureaucrats, and blames the result on "capitalism" in order to justify further government intervention.



i think there's a lot of truth in this.

certainly i think that as a whole, our economic system has many characteristics of fascism.

or, rather, to be more precise- many small and medium-sized businesses in rather peripheral industries are "able" to function as a free market.  (though whether this is beneficial is largely up for debate once the "free" companies are stuck existing in the same economy as the "fascist" ones)

larger industries are generally linked inextricably with government- finance, medicine, defense contracting, utility providers, oil, etc etc.  either the government subsidizes/controls the industries, or the industries pay off the government, or both.

what you're saying in your second paragraph also dovetails almost exactly with the anecdotal statements i've heard from doctors who have been practicing for 30 years.  apparently, back in the day, it often worked like this:  patients would come in.  doctors would treat them.  if it wasn't covered by insurance, and the patient was wealthy, he'd pay.  if the patient was poor, he wouldn't pay, or he would pay what he could afford.  doctors made more than they make now, and more people received better care.  

the main difference between now and then is this:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/HealthCare/health-insurers-post -record-profits/story?id=9818699
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Tidewater

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2011, 03:27:13 am »

Ok, with what you just said before the last thing, and the last thing.. hold a sec, help me say this..

The insurance thing is a scam. I mean, calling a plan where everything is covered, at least.

You really can't insure against anything you know is coming, much less already exists. Insurance is bullshit when the above fact exists.

When I was a child, we walked in, I got prodded, I threw up, we paid and left. It was always $25, and sometimes $50, and never took more than 20 minutes, but we were there a bunch, because I had odd allergies.

I will give an inch if they won't take a mile. I will go for catastrophic, if they make every visit cost the sickly enough to keep them from jamming the door with hangnails, and colds, but not so much that it can't be afforded..

I am not talking about price fixing to eff the doctor. I would also call for an overhaul of the tax system, and regulations about some of the less mainstream things they make doctors do to comply with codes written by Dr. Frankenstein.

Much of the problem with medical cost is administration. The computerized national register is not what I mean.

The tax thing is a major one. If you dump income tax, and fire the IRS, I am all about having a conversation with you, and a bunch of good doctors.

Federal taxes should be a flat 10% at the point of sale for everything but food. It's good enough for God.

Ya know..
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YZ

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2011, 03:46:41 am »

Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 06:27


Federal taxes should be a flat 10% at the point of sale for everything but food. It's good enough for God.
Ya know..


Well, if you take into consideration that when God helps someone it does not cost Him any money, and realize that the 10% you mention go to _the Church's Administration_ and not to God Himself, you may come to the conclusion that those 10% are way too much.
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YZ

DarinK

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2011, 03:49:47 am »

Fenris Wulf wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 23:10



In a free market, the rate of profit for insurance companies would be roughly equal to the rate of profit for other industries (around 3%).


3% is about the rate of overhead for Medicare & VA medical care - the only true government health care systems.



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Extreme Mixing

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2011, 07:16:47 am »

Good points William.

Health care in America should really be a right.  In many ways, it is.  You don't see poor migrant worker's children being born on the street outside the hospital, do you?  And if they are born with a defective heart they get medical attention.  Right?

With rights come responsibility.  That's why I think everyone should pay in, even if you're young and healthy, because you never know what life will bring your way.  I don't know Roger's situation.  Maybe he had a pre-existing condition that made it impossible for him to get coverage.  Or maybe he just didn't think he would ever need medical services.  Either way, $10 donations from a few friends online surely won't be enough to fight this type of cancer.  He won't get much public aid until he has used all of his money and left his family destitute.  That's no way to live and it's certainly not a good way to die.

If you don't think the medical system in this country needs an overhaul then you just haven't been sick enough yet.  I've spent some time in the hospital, and I've seen the bills.  They are astounding!  But at least I got better.

Steve

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