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Author Topic: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)  (Read 12091 times)

wwittman

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2011, 12:06:13 pm »

Fenris Wulf wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 09:20



The American people decisively rejected socialized medicine in the recent election. Perhaps you've been living in a cave and didn't hear about it.



there is not the SLIGHTEST evidence of that

what they rejected was inaction on jobs, or their perception of it.


Socialist police seems to work rather well. Fire depts too.

the "free market" has never existed anywhere and never should.
It's a construct that only works in Ayn Rand's evil head.

and in truth, the business community ITSELF comes running to government for protection of one sort or another inevitably.
capitalism ONLY works with healthy government intervention and oversight.


the 'left', such as it is, looks for where that line might sensibly be drawn.
the right on the other hand insists on repeating the lie that government is unnecessary.


right now in America, if you have a reasonable middle-class income, and are stricken with a massive heart attack, or stroke, or serious cancer, or other major medical catastrophy, and ESPECIALLY one for which there are actual  expensive treatments with good chances of success, the cost of this is astronomically out of your reach.
So the choices?:
Die.
Be bankrupted.
Have insurance... and if you have insurance (which isn't cheap either), the PURPOSE of that company is to maximize its profits by limiting your care as much as possible. as much as the LAW, the GOVERNMENT, allows them to.

none of these are acceptable options in my view.

screw your purist agenda about economics.

Roger, and people just like him who worked all their lives and made a decent income, could DIE for the simple reason that he can't afford care.

that's unacceptable.

you would not deny police protection to someone who didn't make enough money.
or would you?

I say we SHARE the expense of protecting everyone as best we can.
just like we share their police and fire and military protection.
Just like we pay for their clean air and water.
just like when that story broke about the guy whose house they let burn down because he hadn't paid his $75 to the town, everyone who is NOT an asshole was horrified.

you get to decide what kind of world you want to live in.

caring about your neighbours (and EVERYONE is your neighbour) doesn't just mean throwing a donation around once in a while out of your largesse.
It means committing to share ALL of the expenses of ALL of society, all of the time.

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Rader Ranch

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2011, 12:17:47 pm »

Fenris Wulf wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 09:20

The American people decisively rejected socialized medicine in the recent election.


Two years before we were apparently decisively for it. Public opinion is a fickle and easily manipulated thing, just as major flip-flops in political fortune almost always seem to be predicted and expected. Unfortunately, major hardship seems to be a necessary catalyst before any policy sea change.

My experience has been that, of those I know directly involved in the health care industry (who are therefore much more informed than me) the vast majority favor continued health care reform, and I'm fairly certain there's as many conservatives as liberals in that personal survey.

About all I can say definitively is that we're one of the families that fervently hopes our insurance would help in case of catastrophe, 'cause lord knows it blows chunks on the routine maintenance.
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scott...

mgod

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Re: Roger Nichols Fighting For His Life, Needs Your Help
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2011, 12:23:35 pm »

Fenris Wulf wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 03:08

There is a deep cultural divide between Europeans and Americans. Europeans place a higher value on equality, while Americans place a higher value on liberty. Europeans think of themselves as subjects, while Americans think of themselves as citizens. Europeans look for collectivist, government-based solutions to life's problems, while Americans look for individualist solutions to the same problems.

I seem to recall that my country fought a war with your country over these differences, and won the right to devise our own system of government.

You should learn something about America's culture, before you slander half its population and attribute their beliefs to stupidity and malice.

And you should learn one or two tiny things about Europe before you make completely off-base and wildly inaccurate pronouncements about who Europeans are.

I will say, in your defense, that miseducating our young into delusions of who we are and who others are isn't a uniquely American trait. Europeans do it too. So we'll blame your public school system for how little you know. But just for starters you might want to to do a little reading of de Tocqueville and France in the late 18th century. Then proceed from there to the rest of the continent. Also, some awareness of Parliamentary democracy will help you.

Was this condescending? Certainly not! Interpreting it that way would confirm that slander you're worried about.

Also - I'M an American and I favor collectivist solutions. Maybe you ought to learn one or two things about us too.
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mgod

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2011, 12:26:31 pm »

Rader Ranch wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 09:17

Fenris Wulf wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 09:20

The American people decisively rejected socialized medicine in the recent election.

Two years before we were apparently decisively for it. Public opinion is a fickle and easily manipulated thing, just as major flip-flops in political fortune almost always seem to be predicted and expected. Unfortunately, major hardship seems to be a necessary catalyst before any policy sea change.

How fickleness is created - read about Wendell Potter.

Here's the first link that came up:

 http://www.metropulse.com/news/2011/jan/12/wendell-potters-d efection-health-care-pr/

There's plenty more. Advertising is big business because IT WORKS.

http://www.google.com/search?q=potter+medical+industry&i e=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:offi cial&client=firefox-a
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Kurt Foster

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2011, 02:26:27 pm »

I think it's an obscenity that profit is made from any kind of human suffering. Our first priority should be to relive pain and illness money be damned. A catastrophic illness should not wipe out all that a person has worked for their whole life.

Part of the problem with health care in the US is people study to become Doctors, Nurses, Health Care "Professionals" only because they wish to be wealthy and not because they are caring and compassionate people. I have visited many Doctors / Dentists or other "professionals" who were cold incompetent fishes more interested in their cars or getting their appointments finished in order to make a golf date or some other social function.

The sad fact is the wealthy have more now than they have had for years while the working and middle classes are receiving a smaller and smaller piece of the pie  as each year passes and yet it seems they are still not satisfied.  How much is going to be enough?

In another time and place, Mr. Nichols would have had the benefits and job protection afforded by a trade union. He would have been protected by medical insurance paid for by the unions and the industry. Sure he would have had to pay dues and perhaps even put a little time participating in union activities but I submit he would have been better off by far than he is now in present conditions. Remember when people in audio were ALL in a Union that had health care and retirement benefits? That was also a time and situation where jobs were protected and coincidentally the filters and standards of who had access to studios and the means of production were higher. I see it lamented over and over on these pages how much better music and audio were back in those days when you have real talent in the control room and the live room. But in those days 60% of all the jobs in the US were unionized. There is a direct correlation between the loss of the unions and the stagnation of wages in the US. When Ronald Regan busted the air traffic controllers he set a precedent that created a climate for union busting across the nation. Since the 70's coincidentally, wages for the middle and working classes have been flat.  

Somewhere along the line, we let the scabs and freelancers bust the unions not only in the music and audio trades but also in the building trades, food service and other segments of labor and now look what we have? Now even the teamsters are facing the challenge of Mexican drivers and trucks coming into the country via NAFTA and "free trade zone" rules.

What we need is  a few more Jimmy Hoffa types. At least the MAFIA understood the working man needs to eat too. They understand that when the working class does well, everyone does well. Some of the best paying music gigs I ever had were working in clubs that were run by the mob. I think it's time we all get "mobbed up" again.  

Yes in the good old USA, we all have freedom. Freedom to starve, freedom to become homeless and freedom to die. Thanks Ronald Regan.  
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Tidewater

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2011, 02:59:27 pm »

Profit is not made from human suffering. Doctors TREAT suffering.

Do they make too much money? I dunno. I don't make any money. Am I bitching about no healthcare? No. I have no contract that came with my navel to cover it.

I live in the wrong time. I belong in a time where people live their lives, because that's all there was to do. Metopia.
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jwhynot

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2011, 04:22:10 pm »

I've had emergency care in both Canada and the US.

Canada was better.

And cost about 1/15th as much.

And yes, because I'm not a resident, I paid retail for it.

If you got speedy treatment at a US ER, you were fortunate.  I was fortunate too in my last ER visit - I was there only about an hour and 15 minutes.  It did set me back over 3 grand.  But I got fixed up.

But I've had several experiences where it took substantially longer.  For example - in 1996 I had a little mishap in which my knee was cut open, exposing 3 bones.  I needed the laceration fixed as well as a good look at the joint to be sure it wasn't contaminated.

It was 9 hours before I spoke directly to a physician.  I had a little paper bucket for the blood while I waited.  But it was a holiday weekend - there were shootings.  So I waited.

Experiences vary.  ER's are tricky - you never know what emergencies will get in the way.  It's not a good way to compare systems.

Single payer has one very important advantage - wait for it -

it's cheaper.

A hell of a lot cheaper.

And - there is no government intervention in the decision process as to course of treatment.

Read that - unequivocal - none.  Zero.

People who live with that system have a sense of safety and confidence in the outcomes that is virtually unknown in the USA.

I know this will be contradicted by various folks - and is frequently contradicted (falsely) by people in the press.

That doesn't alter the reality.

Those who are afraid of single-payer don't know how it works.  There really is no sensible objection to it, unless you figure having no care at all is preferable.

Soon, the majority will have two options in the US.  Be poor or have no care at all.

Good luck with your decision.  I'm opting for having care - because I maintain in my mind the illusion that we live in a civilized country and maybe, someday, the sensible will overcome the flameout artists with a vested interest.

JW
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bigaudioblowhard

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2011, 04:45:50 pm »

Fenris Wulf wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 07:20

...

The American people decisively rejected socialized medicine in the recent election.
....


The recent election was NOT a referendum on health care. I'm not sure what it was, though.

Certain people are trying to "spin" it as though it was.

I cannot understand why we won't have Single Payer in the US. Believe me, (and JW) as a Canadian living here...

Its cheaper... and everybody relaxes a tiny bit. No matter how fucked financially you may get, your health care is NOT on the table.

I've heard stories of people who were sick, then died, and costs for care only plundered their estate, leaving nothing to be inherited by their children. After it all went to Companies, who are raising rates in California by as much as 50%.

So your dad died, you paid $50,000 for hospital bills, now pay alot more for yourself. (this actually happened to an acquaintance)

This is somehow a better deal? I don't get it, what am I missing here.

America... wake up... take care of your people, stop throwing money at foreign wars. It may not cost you a dime more in taxes, and your children won't have to sell your house you spent your entire life paying off.

bab

zakco

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Re: Roger Nichols Fighting For His Life, Needs Your Help
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2011, 05:32:54 pm »

Silvertone wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 05:39


I want the same health care as my elected official... they seem to get into the doctors right away and get to stay in the hospital as long as it takes. Why not me?


Every American should be asking this very question.

mgod

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2011, 05:41:23 pm »

jwhynot wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 13:22


Soon, the majority will have two options in the US.  Be poor or have no care at all.

JW

Actually there is a 3rd option, and its what I suggest to people who are panicking. Use the services, don't pay your bill, like everyone else. I carry expensive insurance and as a result can't see a doctor when I need to.

BUT - when I had cancer, Blues Shield paid the $50k hospital bill. The surgeon - who wouldn't take insurance because it doesn't pay enough - I paid directly, until I couldn't anymore. He got something for saving my life, about 50%. Plenty enough for 2 hours work.

When I had a heart attack some months later Blue Shield paid the ER, and the doctors, who didn't do such a god job, I never paid. Because I couldn't. The paramedics I did pay.

Now, in commie France everyone would've been taken care of and the docs would have been making a reasonable living, about the same as the rest of the country.

And its worth noting that in a single-payer system, the underlying cause of both my little episodes, which was detected in 1987, would have been taken care of right then, inexpensively, because to do otherwise would risk costing the system too much money in the long run. But in our wise system, the risk of my dying before costing the system money is high enough that's its worth the risk to not spend $500 on minor surgery if there's a chance I won't cost the system anything by dying first. But I outsmarted it, I lived - expensively.

Your political convictions may vary of course. But the numbers don't lie.
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Rader Ranch

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2011, 05:51:37 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 14:59

Profit is not made from human suffering.


By whom, Mother Teresa? I mean...what???

Quote:


I live in the wrong time. I belong in a time where people live their lives, because that's all there was to do.


Disenfranchised hunter-gatherer? I'm living my life. Any contact at all with the outside world should aptly show the range of ideals that constitute folks definition of 'living free', and I can just about guarantee that there are precious few people who would truly be happier a few centuries back, it's merely convenient to romanticize.

Me, I was born far too early I think, but what can you do, besides keep paying taxes and searching for affordable, effective health care  Rolling Eyes
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Jay Kadis

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2011, 06:20:11 pm »

The whole US medical system has been undermined by the profits inherent in the existing structure.  Doctors emerge from medical school owing hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans, so they have to make money.  At every stage of device and drug manufacturing and delivery, profits are exacted by middlemen, each of whom must indemnify themselves so the system is then plagued with unreasonable liability-related costs that thwart new treatments and research.  Corporate research is directed at the most expensive devices and drugs so that maximal profits can be realized, while preventive care and patient education are neglected.  Drug manufacturers advertise directly to end users who don't have a clue about medicine.  Private insurance companies take a big cut for managing the whole system. The associated but extraneous costs are astronomical. These problems are minimized by single-payer systems.  Everyone then has a vested interesting keeping the costs low because they're ultimately paying the cost in tax: better health care leads to lower taxes for all.  Win-win.

Medical care will never be perfect.  We can't all have a heart transplant and we never will be able to.  Doctors make mistakes.  Medicine has grown extremely complex and incidents happen at the limits of our technology.  But if the system is optimized, it will cost less and deliver better care overall.  That is the case everywhere medical care is managed by a single payer system, which is nearly everywhere except the US.

Kassonica

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Re: Roger Nichols Fighting For His Life, Needs Your Help
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2011, 06:34:17 pm »

FFoster wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 22:39


Yes, lets have the government run health care so it can be inaccessible to everybody.



Completely and utterly false.

I wish Roger nichols the best and I hope he recovers and still has a home.

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jonathan jetter

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2011, 06:38:24 pm »

wwittman wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 12:06


Socialist police seems to work rather well. Fire depts too.



hi william-

i agree with you that fire protection should not be provided by the private sector, but i disagree that our police system is working well.

a few reference points off the top of my head-

the Chicago police assassinated Fred Hampton in 1969.

established legal precedent states that the police have no obligation to protect the citizenry, and numerous cases where police failed to respond to 911 calls have not resulted in any findings of liability.  their *only* legal obligation is to work to apprehend criminals.

Frank Lucas's testimony ended up indicting practically the entire NYC vice squad.

Amadou Diallo and Abner Louima and Rodney King.

all the recent taserings, including a grandfather who was strapped to his hospital bed, and a driver who had gone into diabetic shock and was mistakenly thought by cops to be drunk.

etc etc etc.

i don't know what the solution is, but we've worked ourselves into a situation where we employ a police force of halfwits and racists and frat boys who never grew up, give them guns, roll the dice, and hope it all somehow works out.

as far as health care...i don't know what the solution is, either.  i'm actually mildly impressed that my congress did something, even if it turns out not to be perfect.  i tend to think that health care is also one of the few things i would not want to be provided by the private sector, and things are currently so broken that i think it can't hurt to give this new way a chance.  i'd even be willing to get behind a fully public option, and i'm someone who in most aspects of life will always argue for a free market solution.

jon

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Les Ismore

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Re: Health care - the need for reformation (was Roger Nichols)
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2011, 06:57:27 pm »

As stated in the other thread on this subject, Canadian healthcare is a basic right to Canadians. To most civilized countries in the world. Basic, basic stuff here.
The fact that the US is soooo behind the rest of the civilized world isn't just lousy, it's CRIMINAL.
It's not free, we pay according to income. My household has a relatively high income, so we pay about $60 per month for the 2 of us. In the past when I was a starving musician I didn't have to pay as much and at times didn't have to pay anything. And yes it comes out of tax revenue as does schools, government, police, fire protection, road maintenance, etc etc etc.
I have a friend (canadian) who moved to New York and worked as a producer engineer musician there for 20 years and was fairly successful doing many records you would be familiar with. Couldn't afford insurance. One night leaving the studio the cab he is riding home in is wiped out by a couple idiots in a stolen car. He was paralyzed from the waist down for the rest of his life. And requires much therapy and help. Luckily for him he has many friends who have been putting on benefits and started a trust fund for him, as otherwise I doubt he would have survived.
Is that how it is in the US? If you aren't famous and have legions of fans and rich friends to donate to your healthcare bills you just die?
That's more like a third world country........
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