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Author Topic: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick  (Read 23291 times)

Wireline

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2011, 01:03:46 pm »

And everyone has a legal opinion:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2009/06/The-Enumera ted-Powers-Act-A-First-Step-Toward-Constitutional-Government

To save you the trouble, this deals with the repeated commerce clause and the consistent manner that the government steps outside of acting within enumerated powers - of which mandated health care does not fall.

Look - I'm in favor of some sort of national health care; just not this atrocious pile of horse droppings as it stands now.  The way it sets now, it will control us, not the other way around.  Where are doctors supposed to come from?  Nurses?  Hospitals?  The every increasing specialists?  Long term care people?  

Who is going to pay them?  Who determines if they are doing a good job?  Where is the accountability?  Who decides what meds are approved and which aren't (even when they work but are deemed too expensive to the system)

See, what I am describing is very real right now - its called the VA, and I am an outpatient therein.  I see these matters ever time I go there; I don't have access to the same meds indigents in Midland County have, because the feds decided they were too expensive, whereas the County decided illegals and homeless were in fact worth the money.  I have to wait 5-10 YEARS for a knee replacement...

This is the picture of government health care as it stands right now - if this is what you want for the entire nation, be my guest, as this is what it will come to once the Federales grab power of the entire mess
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2011, 01:04:24 pm »

Wireline wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 16:47


Which is what repealing this current 'system' and starting over is all about...any program that the population was advised to pass it to find out what was in it is wrong in its very nature.



Which if that was the attitude I'd heard from most of the naysayers when it was proposed, I would agree with you.

But I didn't see "ok, the current system is broken, it's unfair and expensive, but this proposal had problems, this xxxx would be better"

What I saw was people defending the system you had, making claims about other countries that were generally innacurate, saying they didn't want to pay for other people, spouting ideological stuff about small government, etc.

You had the chance to start over, and you botched it, because what you chould probably have done was fight to take the changes FURTHER.
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Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2011, 01:05:32 pm »

Oh yeah, Boehner and these brilliant republicans people in congress REALLY have a good plan and are just trying implement it, sure!!!   None of this horse shit is just political posturing all based on broad idealogical Bullshit that is just trying to screw people and make them suffer more!!!  How noble?!?!!?

This health care Bill now is the same as the Bob Dole plan from the 90's.   You want to re-instate pre-existing conditions? why?

cheers

Wireline wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 08:47

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 10:41

Wireline wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 16:25

Make it equal access, make it a workable plan, then lets seriously look at it...


How about seriously looking at how to make it equal access and workable?

If your car was as broken as your health system was, the only discussion and argument you'd have with your partner was over which car was best to buy to replace it, not whether or not it needed replacing.


Which is what repealing this current 'system' and starting over is all about...any program that the population was advised to pass it to find out what was in it is wrong in its very nature.

How many waivers have been already granted?  This in and of itself shows the new system to be as busted as the old system, just busted for a whole new class of people.

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Wireline

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2011, 01:33:37 pm »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 12:04

Wireline wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 16:47


Which is what repealing this current 'system' and starting over is all about...any program that the population was advised to pass it to find out what was in it is wrong in its very nature.



Which if that was the attitude I'd heard from most of the naysayers when it was proposed, I would agree with you.

But I didn't see "ok, the current system is broken, it's unfair and expensive, but this proposal had problems, this xxxx would be better"

What I saw was people defending the system you had, making claims about other countries that were generally innacurate, saying they didn't want to pay for other people, spouting ideological stuff about small government, etc.

You had the chance to start over, and you botched it, because what you chould probably have done was fight to take the changes FURTHER.



I?  This is not a political matter, nor is it a personal matter...(you seem to assume I am a republican - I most certainly am not)

Here's the story:  If this thing was so good, or even if it was close to acceptable, then why would over 50% of the states of this nation in the process of suing the US as to the legality of mandated health care?  26 states' have filed suit. This should tell you something about how good this program is.

I didn't do anything...please don't make assumptions of which you know nothing about.
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2011, 01:52:35 pm »

Wireline wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 18:33

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 12:04

Wireline wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 16:47


Which is what repealing this current 'system' and starting over is all about...any program that the population was advised to pass it to find out what was in it is wrong in its very nature.



Which if that was the attitude I'd heard from most of the naysayers when it was proposed, I would agree with you.

But I didn't see "ok, the current system is broken, it's unfair and expensive, but this proposal had problems, this xxxx would be better"

What I saw was people defending the system you had, making claims about other countries that were generally innacurate, saying they didn't want to pay for other people, spouting ideological stuff about small government, etc.

You had the chance to start over, and you botched it, because what you chould probably have done was fight to take the changes FURTHER.



I?  This is not a political matter, nor is it a personal matter...(you seem to assume I am a republican - I most certainly am not)

Here's the story:  If this thing was so good, or even if it was close to acceptable, then why would over 50% of the states of this nation in the process of suing the US as to the legality of mandated health care?  26 states' have filed suit. This should tell you something about how good this program is.

I didn't do anything...please don't make assumptions of which you know nothing about.


I should have clarified that in that case I meant you as a nation, not an individual, nor even as a member of any political group, in case you didn't pick it up from my previous posts I'm not a US citizen.

And I've never argued that the proposed system was a good one, I've never learned enough about it to make that judgement, my position is that what you had was so messed up (whether your position is that of the selfish or the selfless, the average American was losing out compared to citizens of other developed countries) that the discussion and argument should have been about how best to replace it, how to take all the lessons learned from the rest of the world's systems (and your own) and use them to produce a new system from a clean state, not the near paranoia about paying for someone else and phobic reaction to anything which even hinted at the word socialism that I seemed to be seeing.
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DarinK

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2011, 02:04:01 pm »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 10:52


I should have clarified that in that case I meant you as a nation, not an individual, nor even as a member of any political group, in case you didn't pick it up from my previous posts I'm not a US citizen.

And I've never argued that the proposed system was a good one, I've never learned enough about it to make that judgement, my position is that what you had was so messed up (whether your position is that of the selfish or the selfless, the average American was losing out compared to citizens of other developed countries) that the discussion and argument should have been about how best to replace it, how to take all the lessons learned from the rest of the world's systems (and your own) and use them to produce a new system from a clean state, not the near paranoia about paying for someone else and phobic reaction to anything which even hinted at the word socialism that I seemed to be seeing.


Don't mistake the sensational stuff on the news for the reality of how Americans feel about health care.  There are many of us who did not support the new overhaul because it did not go far enough.  At least 60% of us support some sort of single-payer or public option, even though that sort of thing was never allowed to truly enter the discussion, either at the political or mass media levels.  If a true, rational, in-depth public discussion about the situation were to happen, I bet that number could approach 80% easily.  Unfortunately in the U.S. the will of the majority of people is sometimes ignored by those elected to represent the people, and often there is no viable alternative for which to vote.
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Les Ismore

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2011, 02:36:31 pm »

All these things keep taking me back to the movie "Idiocracy". I won't get into the whole plot here but the guy wakes up several hundred years in the future and civilization has de-evolved into a huge mess (that looks a little too much like today)
So at this point in the future they have substituted water everywhere in the world with Gatoraid. They are wondering why all the crops are dying and there's no food, so the hero (who is now the smartest guy in the world) says "Stop using Gatoraid instead of water!"  But they don't want to because a whole lot of people make their living from Gatoraid, and they no longer even remember a time when people used water anymore and it's too dramatic an idea when they've all become so used to Gatoraid.

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jonathan jetter

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2011, 02:45:15 pm »

Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 12:33

I'm sorry, but requiring health care coverage is NOT unconstitutional.  And as I'm not a legal expert, here is the news from someone who is:
 http://www.healthreformwatch.com/2009/08/25/is-it-unconstitu tional-to-mandate-health-insurance/

Despite one ruling that is it unconstitutional, there have been many which have affirmed that it is.

Barry



hi barry,

with respect, there are many instances where some legal expert has declared something constitutional and i still don't think it is.

even the supreme court manages to fuck it up on occasion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London

who knows.  maybe i'm the crazy one.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2011, 03:27:55 pm »

I'm sorry but I don't understand the connection of that case to the one about health care.  I'm sorry.  I don't mean to be obtuse.  Maybe you can make it clearer for me.

With regard to 26 states suing the government over health care, it is not necessarily the states who are doing it.  By that I mean not the state government but someone working in state government.  For instance here in Missouri.  It is said "Missouri is suing over health care".  And that is wrong.  The state is fine with the health care law.  The Lieutenant Gov. isn't happy so he personally is suing.  AND IN ALL CASES, THE SUITS ARE BY REPUBLICANS.  

You have to remember that the Republicans' mission is one thing and one thing only.  It is as Mitch McConnell is on record saying -- to keep Obama from being re-elected in 2012 and to undo all he has accomplished.  A black guy got to be president and the racists went (even more) insane.  So any form of health care that doesn't benefit big business is anathema to them.  

A good rule of thumb when something is being attacked is to look at who's attacking it and why.  The Republicans aren't shy about attacking or shy about stating their self-serving motives.

No health care system is perfect.  In fact, the one passed recently ("Obamacare") isn't even as good as the Republicans(!) proposed under Jimmy Carter, which was shot down by Ted Kennedy.

Face it.  This new system is as good as it's going to get for a while.  I'd like it to be even better.  Dennis Kucinich would like it to be better (and I tend to admire his stance on issues).  But unless it can somehow get down to "single payer" form, this is it.



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jonathan jetter

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2011, 03:49:54 pm »

Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 15:27

I'm sorry but I don't understand the connection of that case to the one about health care.  I'm sorry.  I don't mean to be obtuse.  Maybe you can make it clearer for me.




hi barry,

my point is only in response to your linked article where requiring health care is declared constitutional.

my point is that i think the government has on numerous occasions wrongly declared something to be constitutional, even when i think it clearly isn't.

it's possible that i'm wrong but i think perhaps equally likely (if not moreso) that they just decide what they want to do and then create some sort of ex post facto justification.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2011, 06:08:13 pm »

Thanks for the clarification.  I'm sorry I missed it the first time.

I am confident the government can be wrong.  Limitless examples.  And I'm sure The Constitution has been abused.  But if the government doesn't say what is "constitutional" then I don't think anyone else has the authority.  And as we all know, laws and morals seldom share the same bed.

Barry


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Bill_Urick

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2011, 09:50:37 pm »

Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 15:27

A black guy got to be president and the racists went (even more) insane.


Thank you for a perfect example of left-wing tactics to attempt to shut down issue based discussion by name calling and character assassination.

Way to set a Christian example, my brother.

Not.
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Dominick

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2011, 09:53:51 pm »

 
Bill_Urick wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 21:50

Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 15:27

A black guy got to be president and the racists went (even more) insane.


Thank you for a perfect example of left-wing tactics to attempt to shut down issue based discussion by name calling and character assassination.

Way to set a Christian example, my brother.

Not.


Nothing to do with shutting down the discussion or setting a Christian example.
Just pointing out the obvious. And yes, it's pertinent to the discussion
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Barry Hufker

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2011, 10:08:10 pm »

Bill_Urick wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 20:50

Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 15:27

A black guy got to be president and the racists went (even more) insane.


Thank you for a perfect example of left-wing tactics to attempt to shut down issue based discussion by name calling and character assassination.

Way to set a Christian example, my brother.

Not.


I'm sorry Bill but I call it as I see it.  One can be a Republican without being racist.  I've even voted Republican (in a more conciliatory time).  If you are personally offended I apologize to you.  But what else explains the attitude of the current Republican party?  It is certainly not a "socialist, marxist, national socialist" agenda.  Obama is about as centered as a President can be.  And Republicans of 20 years ago would have seen that.  The Republican Party is so far right it wouldn't know center if it bit them.  Why do you think Michael Steele was voted (last time) the head of the Party?  It wasn't his qualifications (except the one about being black).  Republicans had to show there were black people in the party.

And as far as being a Christian.  Christians are no better than anyone else -- and I'm living proof.

Barry

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YZ

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2011, 12:19:05 am »

Bill_Urick wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 00:50

Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 15:27

A black guy got to be president and the racists went (even more) insane.


Thank you for a perfect example of left-wing tactics to attempt to shut down issue based discussion by name calling and character assassination.

Way to set a Christian example, my brother.

Not.


Hmmm...  like saying that Obama:

- Is not an US Citizen;
- Is a Terrorist;
- Is Muslim (therefore not Christian? or the intention was to reinforce the 'terrorist' libel?);
- Is a Communist;
- All other stuff that was said about him by Republicans during the campaign and is still said today by republicans and tea-somethings?

NOT name calling? NOT character assassination? 'Christian' examples? Did the party raised any opposition to those outlandish accusations?

gimme a break.

and now for a little humor:

http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac195/auto656454/obama-the-gods-must-be-crazy.jpg
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regards,

YZ
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