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Author Topic: My day at the Doctor  (Read 7854 times)

YZ

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My day at the Doctor
« on: January 18, 2011, 05:56:13 pm »

Ok, I had this appointment with an endocrinologist - gotta lose some acquired mass and don't want to do it without a Doc - and in my printed appt sheet it said: "appointment at 11:30, please come in by 11:00".

So there I was at 11:05 at the clinic and there were a bunch of people waiting; the receptionist was  s l o w  so by the time she had my papers in order to hand them to the Doc it was already 11:25 and I was a bit concerned with delays, which only got worse when I peeked over the counter and saw that she had clipped a little card to my folder saying "11:35"...

By 11:30 I was upstairs in her waiting room (better said waiting hallway) and was in by 11:42.

We chatted a bit about what happened since my last visit about 45 days ago, how I was feeling with the medication, etc; she filled new prescriptions for my meds and as she did that I asked about a new appointment with the orthopedist, because the appt I had last week was with a 'stand-in' Doc in place of my regular guy who was in vacations and I didn't like the new guy at all... besides, I needed him to 'renew' the physical therapy and acupuncture sessions, I had already used them all up; when I said that she handed me a folder about some alternative medicine (chinese traditional, etc) that were available.

She gave me two forms to be presented at the front desk of the clinic, one for the new appt with the ortho and one for my return with her in 60 days, along with the prescriptions.

I told her that the ortho had asked me for an MRI of my lower back, and the exam showed something in my kidneys; I know that an MRI is not the best thing for kidney stuff so she gave me another form, a request for an ultrasound exam.

I thanked her, said goodbye and went upstairs to the exam scheduling room to pick a number...  mine was 142, the queue was on 131 so I figured I had time to go down and back to the pharmacy to pick a number for the meds line; on my way back I stopped by the front desk to pick a number for the new appointments and went back two floors up to the exam scheduling.

Man, that line was going slow...  at least we were seated. After a while I went downstairs to check the med line, I was one number behind so in a couple of minutes I had my meds, went around front and was 3 numbers behind so I sat there and got my new appointments in some 15 minutes, went back up and the line was at # 139.

I finally got everything sorted out by 1 PM and was on my way back home.

Of course, I could only get the appt with the ortho for 5 weeks later since I insisted on the same good Doc and he was vacationing, besides mine wasn't an urgent case.

All of the above for free: meds, MRI, appointments, ultrasound, acupuncture, phys therapy, yoga, meditation etc and I even grabbed some free condoms on the way out of the state clinic here in S
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regards,

YZ

Berolzheimer

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2011, 06:08:42 pm »

YZ wrote on Tue, 18 January 2011 14:56



All of the above for free: meds, MRI, appointments, ultrasound, acupuncture, phys therapy, yoga, meditation etc and I even grabbed some free condoms on the way out of the state clinic here in S
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Gio

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2011, 07:40:48 pm »

It's not really free. Someone is paying for it, no?
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YZ

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2011, 08:06:56 pm »

Gio wrote on Tue, 18 January 2011 22:40

It's not really free. Someone is paying for it, no?


Oh yes. When I was someone else's employee, part of my salary was discounted towards the state medical and welfare systems, and my employers also had to pay their part on top of that.

Now I am self-employed and I do, by my own choice, pay a monthly contribution towards our social security system (which includes health care).

Any deficits at the health care side are covered in the federal, state and municipal budgets; health care is considered here as one of the basic services that the government has to provide.
Now, before anyone thinks that we achieved perfection...  no, the system is far from perfect and in several locations of the country it is actually a very poor service.

But here where I live it works, so I use it.

PS: in several locations in my city, the state provides free and open yoga, meditation, liam-gong classes/sessions (and other similar alternative medicine stuff) because those have been proved to reduce stress and prevent other ailments that cost much more to treat later on.
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regards,

YZ

MagnetoSound

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2011, 03:49:04 am »

YZ wrote on Wed, 19 January 2011 01:06

PS: in several locations in my city, the state provides free and open yoga, meditation, liam-gong classes/sessions (and other similar alternative medicine stuff) because those have been proved to reduce stress and prevent other ailments that cost much more to treat later on.




It is possible to be both progressive and economical.


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Tidewater

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2011, 11:13:29 am »

Something on your kidneys? Are you ok?
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YZ

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2011, 05:53:07 pm »

The MRI was for my spine, but the report mentioned bi-lateral kidney cysts after listing all the stuff about my spine; I know that kidney cysts appear as we grow old, but I also know that an MRI is not the best exam for that sort of thing so why not ask the Doctor for a better-suited exam just to make sure it isn't anything of importance?

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regards,

YZ

Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2011, 08:17:38 pm »

The police, fire, and road management are all non-profit here, I dont understand why medical treatment cant be the same!!!
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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

Tidewater

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2011, 12:53:36 am »

Because the development of most modern treatment is funded by America. Without that, there is the alternative.. the alternative to new technology... none.

If you are sick, you are treated. I still fail to see the big problem, but I guess it's because I don't own a congressman.

This pre-existing condition thing has me thinking I should let my car insurance lapse, and then get new insurance that doesn't discriminate against pre-existing conditions.. but that isn't really insurance, that is just a sugar daddy..

"Thanks for calling GEICO! How can I help you today?"

"I wrecked my new Volt!"

"I am so sorry! Are you ok?"

"Yeah, I am fine, but it's totaled!"

"Can I get your policy number sir? We will get an agent right on that for you."

"I don't have a policy with you, yet."

You understand that, I am sure.

Do you want doctors, and medicine to feel the same pain as the record industry? Imagine illegal downloading of expensive services. What to do when the medical business goes suburban. Cancer treatment clinics in garages? Not literally, but again, an analogous pointer, no?

Imagine when the government is printing money to pay for everyone to have a boob job. Boob jobs will cost $95,000.00, everyone will have huge lopsided tits, and dollars will be worth about a penny.

It's amazingly cruel, but we weren't promised all these freebies in life. They are resources that are not at all like low fruit to be plucked by the basket.

20% of the population would have to be slaves working on a med farm.

Life is a bitch, and then we die. I haven't heard that since just before everyone lost their minds in this insane downward spiral we demanded from unqualified people.
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Tidewater

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2011, 01:01:58 am »

I am sorry, just to add.. I'd rather die that drain you. That isn't a mouth serving an agenda. I really would. Trust me.

I had a good run.
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YZ

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2011, 01:23:06 am »

On the pre-existing condition thing:

In your example, you as a client _knew_ that your car was wrecked.

In the case of someone's health, unless he/she had already been to a doctor and had exams done, how can he know that he has, say, stage II liver cancer?

And I respectfully disagree on pretty much everything else you wrote...

One thing is plastic surgery to reconstruct the face of a burn victim, a 'breast augmentation' is something else.

And I was talking about state clinics, not private enterprises charging whatever they want for whatever procedures they wanted to perform, needed or not, actually performed or not.

A doctor from the state judging which exams, procedures, meds and stuff the patient needs; if the needed procedure is rare and not available at the public health network, then a suitable private entity is chosen to perform it, under the state's supervision.

And as happened to me if I, the patient, am not happy with the doc's decision I can go back to the queue and try another doctor.

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regards,

YZ

Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2011, 02:25:25 am »

Profit from pain should not be the answer, its just wrong.  The eu/uk/ca seem to be doing just fine.  A police chief in NYC makes damn good money, specialists for the super rich will always be there.  A shot of some liquid at the right time should only be worth a syringe, a reasonable hourly wage, and the basic ingredients it is made up from.  We should not have people in Ferraris and 50 inch plasma tv's and deny people basic care.  If some one is in trouble, the cops dont consider how much money that person is worth and demand that dough on the spot before stopping a killer with a gun.   Its just plain wrong!!

why dont we charge $30 for one apple, just because "lifes a bitch man"!!!

what tiny percentage of the huge amounts of cash being spent on unneccisary foreign wars would actually just get people basic care.  I dont see people angry about that money being spent!!  But hey, as long as .007 percent of the population gets an extra summer house- its totally worth it!!! Confused


Lets deny people with bad infections basic shit because we know when that thing grows big enough, we can really charge them a bunch of cash because they will have to or die.  Hard working people who contribute so much to our world/country and dont get paid a lot for it should be blackmailed out of their life savings ,which they accumulated through HOURLY wages, just to get a basic operation!!    If you are an artist at all in life, this would be your masterpiece!???!!  Have fun with that man!!!  I'm gonna go deny a starving person food and demand an extra ordinary amount of cash for it, tell them to come up with that ransom or "else"!!  WTF?

Some one needs 15 extra rooms in their house for 2 people, while some one sharing a 1 room apartment with 5 people cant have basic anti-biotics?   whats next??  poor people cant use the sidewalk either?   some things are meant for all that only nature owns, at some point the monoply game of capitalism needs its small kinks worked out!!!  It really would not even make that much of a difference in the giant system!!!

cheers
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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2011, 02:37:35 am »

Those people who want basic care never took the things they made in factories for 50 yrs of back labor and demand they get some crazy amount for it.  No, they contribute to society and deserve better.  The toilets you crap on, the cars you drive, and everything else made by hard working people around is a fair trade contribution for basic respect and understanding!! Unappreciative greedy fuckin bastards!!!!!   Its called Dignity, not taking and taking and taking with no line or limit all based on "the rules man"!!!!!

cheers
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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

KB_S1

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2011, 06:30:49 am »

UK NHS has its issues but in the general it is pretty good.
If you have the funds, private care is available too.

I always look at it from emergency scenario.
The question of funds and insurance should be the very last concern when someone is injured in an accident. Everyone in the country will potentially require emergency health care. To spread the costs throughout society is no bad thing.

Private pharmaceutical development is big money business. Some of the principles and practices are not very caring.
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2011, 07:52:43 am »

"The market" is a poor way to optimize healthcare.

Left to its own devices it optimizes for the profit of the vendors, that's it's natural state, and in addition without occasional shakeups you get false optimums, so it's not even perfect in that respect.

However the optimum for healthcare from a social and national economic perspective is the least amount of illness for the lowest expenditure.
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bblackwood

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2011, 08:02:11 am »

Bubba#$%Kron, tone down the name-calling - we allow a certain amount of latitude here, but we're not going to allow attacks on other members.
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ssltech

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2011, 08:12:25 am »

Tidewater wrote

I had a good run.



...yeah...

-But it got a bit weird at the end there!

Razz
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2011, 10:44:35 am »

I honestly was not directing anything at any person, I was just referring to society as a whole.  But I will take note of that and make sure I'm more clear and mellow next time.  Its a passionate subject!!

cheers

bblackwood wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 05:02

Bubba#$%Kron, tone down the name-calling - we allow a certain amount of latitude here, but we're not going to allow attacks on other members.

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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

Tidewater

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2011, 02:55:14 pm »

ssltech wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 08:12

Tidewater wrote

I had a good run.



...yeah...

-But it got a bit weird at the end there!

Razz



You should have seen the middle.

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Tidewater

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2011, 03:00:26 pm »

YZ wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 01:23

On the pre-existing condition thing:

In your example, you as a client _knew_ that your car was wrecked.

In the case of someone's health, unless he/she had already been to a doctor and had exams done, how can he know that he has, say, stage II liver cancer?

And I respectfully disagree on pretty much everything else you wrote...

One thing is plastic surgery to reconstruct the face of a burn victim, a 'breast augmentation' is something else.



California is paying for sex changes here.. just sayin'...

In my example, there was a pre-existing condition. That is all that is important.

I don't want people to be denied care. They are not as it is now.. the conversation about what is really wrong has been subverted from the real issues, in my opinion.
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YZ

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2011, 05:32:01 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 18:00


California is paying for sex changes here.. just sayin'...

Well, if the people of California, represented by their elected officials, believe that the state should pay for sex change surgeries but not offer basic universal health care...  that's their option. What can I do? I don't vote there.
Quote:


In my example, there was a pre-existing condition. That is all that is important.


Hold your horses there... "that is all that's important"? Respectfully no. My point was that car insurance is different from health insurance and my OP was NOT about health _insurance_ but about State Health Care; the only pre-existing condition here is "are you ill? then we'll take care of you; if you're not ill, we won't".
Who defines if I am ill and what illness I have? The state doctor, to avoid private interests to interfere with proper care and administration.
Quote:


I don't want people to be denied care. They are not as it is now.. the conversation about what is really wrong has been subverted from the real issues, in my opinion.


Well, my OP was about my visit to the state clinic here in my underdeveloped third world country where people go to work by hopping from vine to vine, where monkeys and snakes roam the streets and whose main export is bananas (real 'explanation' of what Brazil is given by a 'developed' guy in another internet forum a couple of months ago).

TBH, a lot of fellow middle-class paulistas (that's Portuguese for 'citizen of S
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regards,

YZ

Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2011, 05:34:53 pm »

California is not paying for sex changes!!! We cant even pay our employees pensions!!  Please  back up ridiculous statements with links or facts!!!

That would be on every news channel if that was true!! come on?!?!?!
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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

DarinK

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2011, 05:59:57 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 12:00


I don't want people to be denied care. They are not as it is now..


You're kidding here, right?
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Tidewater

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2011, 07:24:20 pm »

Sorry. I don't ask you for anything, and I have nothing to give.

Be safe.
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Jay Kadis

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2011, 09:00:53 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 16:24

Sorry. I don't ask you for anything, and I have nothing to give.
Do you never drive on roads? Go to the park?  Where do THEY come from?

The main advantage of civilization is that we don't each have to do everything ourselves.  I make use of it.

YZ

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2011, 10:32:55 pm »

I don't see tea-somethings or right-wingers protesting that their taxes are used to pay school for other people's kids or provide roads for people who paid less than them and other stuff...

Wanna drive your car from NY to LA? Pave your own road, dammit, who says the government HAS to provide you with tarmac? Wanna drive on MY dime, you lazy-a$$? No way.

And why should _I_ pay school for that irresponsible bum who had 6 kids? I did my family planning and have ONE kid, I shouldn't pay for more than that.

I want my freedom!

Smile

So let's end now the political/ideological stuff, this thread was started by me to show how the public health system works here in my city...

Now, I'd like to hear from our fellow audio engineers in other countries how they go about getting a doctor's appointment in their state health systems.

I'd prefer first-hand reports: until I actually used the local public health care, I had the worst possible image of it.

I believe that if the forum members from all countries can see the various different approaches to public health care around the world as told by people they know from this forum it will be a great resource and provide good food for thought.

So, how about France, Germany, the UK, Canada, etc? Please let us know!
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regards,

YZ

resolectric

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2011, 07:46:02 am »

We also had free health care (Portugal).

Now were bankrupt so it's gone. There are traces of free but it now includes a tax (wich takes the free out of it) and some not-very-healthy care if you go to Public hospitals or clinics.
And be ready to wait for more than a year for surgery.

It's way too expensive to maintain such a benefit if you don't have oil being drilled somewhere.

So, yes, it was nice while it lasted.
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2011, 08:14:28 am »

resolectric wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 12:46

It's way too expensive to maintain such a benefit if you don't have oil being drilled somewhere.


Tell that to the Cubans.

The reality is that in any country, the population on average pay X% for their healthcare, whether that is through private care (payed directly), state care (payed through taxes) or some combination of both.

The reality is also that systems which are founded on a socialist perspective (though details of implementation change, and may include components or lessons from the private sector), are, shocking as it may seem to those who worship capitalism, capable of providing considerably better value for money, so if you don't have oil being drilled that's the system you want.

The recent healthcare bill in the USA was I suspect a terribly wasted opportunity. Lots of people fought having one at all, probably even before it was announced (which may have led to it already being a messed up compromise).. wrong argument. The arguments should have been about WHAT system of public healthcare to bring in, not about whether you should keep the existing expensive, inefficient and also uncivilized system.

Other countries pay less than Americans, they're as healthy (if not healthier), and noone goes bankrupt because they contract an illness... what's not to like?
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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2011, 04:01:11 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Wed, 19 January 2011 21:53

Because the development of most modern treatment is funded by America. Without that, there is the alternative.. the alternative to new technology... none.

Mmmm.... Kool-Aid. So good with added sugar!
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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2011, 02:41:43 am »

YZ wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 19:32



So, how about France, Germany, the UK, Canada, etc? Please let us know!


In Canada it basically works. The quality of care is not up to what is would be in a high priced, American "specialty" hospital, but from what I understand from talking to my family (they're ALL Americans) and friends is that it is considerably better than what the majority of americans are seeing. And most importantly, its thorough and affordable.

My father is currently recovering from 18 months of chemo and radiation after having a malignant tumor removed from his brain.  He has received fantastic and timely care. No excessive waiting and NO CHARGE. None.

If you lined up 1000 canucks, you would be hard pressed to find one that wouldn't be happy/proud to have done their part to help him.

I don't think that Americans are fundamentally uncaring, but I do believe that there is a unique sickness in its society that heralds the "every man for himself" mentality as something to be proud of.

Watching the corporate media manipulate the least educated (and arguably the least fortunate) of its society to mobilize to fight social medicine in the form of pseudo patriotism is hard to take. What the teabaggers (sorry tidewater) don't seem to realize is that Rupert Murdoch (and the corporate criminals he operates on behalf of) are the very ones that benefit from your misguided anger. Meanwhile the middle class is systematically eroded.

Making health care a basic human right is NOT THE SAME AS COMMUNISM! You CAN have a free market economy AND a social safety net. The two need be mutually exclusive. If you've been taught otherwise, then you've been LIED TO. Repeatedly.

The fact that we're even having this conversation blows my mind...

Z







Tidewater

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2011, 03:55:04 am »

mgod wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 16:01

Tidewater wrote on Wed, 19 January 2011 21:53

Because the development of most modern treatment is funded by America. Without that, there is the alternative.. the alternative to new technology... none.

Mmmm.... Kool-Aid. So good with added sugar!



Really? The truth probably is between us. You like me, you really like me.
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YZ

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2011, 07:34:14 am »

Tidewater wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 06:55

mgod wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 16:01

Tidewater wrote on Wed, 19 January 2011 21:53

Because the development of most modern treatment is funded by America. Without that, there is the alternative.. the alternative to new technology... none.

Mmmm.... Kool-Aid. So good with added sugar!



Really? The truth probably is between us. You like me, you really like me.


Well Miles, I'm waiting for you to point to reliable sources of information that corroborate your statement that "the development of most modern treatment is funded by America".

In my understanding, "funded by America" means "paid for by the government of the USA", please enlighten me if that is not correct.

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regards,

YZ

mgod

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2011, 12:00:39 pm »

I think his point is that there are no modern medical treatments or drugs developed anywhere outside the US. And of course, we all know that's the truth.

Or at least "truth-like".

As Colbert points out, for certain microcosms of mentality, it feels good to believe. And there are a number of for-profit concerns that make a lot of money by feeding beliefs like that. The US, after all, is a very special place. Far more special than anywhere else - so it must be true, because it feels so good, like a gun in the hand.
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mgod

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2011, 12:03:43 pm »

zakco wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 23:41

The fact that we're even having this conversation blows my mind...

Z

Yeah, but you're a Canadian, man - what do you know? Here in The Greatest Nation That Ever Was or Ever Will Be, we all know that any Canadian who denies hating his health care system or envying us ours is just lying for some ignorant patriotic purpose.
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Berolzheimer

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2011, 12:49:24 pm »

YZ wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 04:34

Tidewater wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 06:55

mgod wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 16:01

Tidewater wrote on Wed, 19 January 2011 21:53

Because the development of most modern treatment is funded by America. Without that, there is the alternative.. the alternative to new technology... none.

Mmmm.... Kool-Aid. So good with added sugar!



Really? The truth probably is between us. You like me, you really like me.


Well Miles, I'm waiting for you to point to reliable sources of information that corroborate your statement that "the development of most modern treatment is funded by America".

In my understanding, "funded by America" means "paid for by the government of the USA", please enlighten me if that is not correct.




Yeah, & that 8 year ban on stem cell research really helped things along, didn't it?
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DarinK

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2011, 05:04:19 pm »

Profit motive does not compel scientists to search for medical breakthroughs.  They'll gladly do that for government wages.  Profit motive does mean that scientists cannot all work together, and instead must keep all their work private & secure, which slows progress.  And the need for big profits for investors & big pharma / big medicine CEO's & stockholders has at least three other negative consequences:  1) medication/etc. gets rushed to market even if it is not actually an improvement over current options, & even if it is harmful;  2) more people making a profit raises prices; & 3) only treatments that have the potential to make a big profit are studied, which is why there is now very little study of natural remedies or the effects of diet.
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mgod

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Re: My day at the Doctor
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2011, 05:12:51 pm »

There's more to it - a few years ago I met  bio researcher who worked at a Pharm company here in town. He left his R&D job at the company and went over to the admin department because R&D was specifically instructed to NOT invest any effort into cures, only into symptom maintenance.
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