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Author Topic: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)  (Read 10066 times)

Hallams

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Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« on: January 13, 2011, 07:09:36 pm »

Ok, thought i would rename this thread and link to what i see as a moderate article analyzing aspects of the fall out from the recent Arizona shootings. (He articulates the position that sits comfortably with me far better than i could state it.)

  http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/extremisms-explosi   ve-effects-remind-us-to-take-all-things-in-moderation-201101 13-19pr4.html

Extremism's explosive effects remind us to take all things in moderation
Steve Harris
January 14, 2011

Divisive, sound-bite politics does great harm to the cause of democracy.

AMERICA is paying a high price for the demonising of democracy and smashing of the public-interest lens into a cacophony of simplistic sound bites, policy-by-slogan, bigotry and vitriol. The integrity of language, trust and public interest is too readily confined to the back of a bus hijacked by the extreme and marginal.

But this problem is not America's alone.


Too many people in leadership positions become victims of PAIDS - politically acquired integrity deficiency syndrome - and eschew their responsibilities. That is bad enough, but then the media fuel and elevate the virus of conflict and celebrity, and the internet removes usual protective barriers of time and distance.

A simplistic analysis might cite Sarah Palin as evidence of the trend to simplification but she is only one player on a stage that has had many players for many years.

As the world becomes more connected and complex, and as communities struggle to keep up without losing their soul, so leaders and media can easily become partners in the crime of reducing or distorting issues into a fast-food diet.

The people of Arizona are not so different to Australians, but they have become victims of polarised and simplistic debates about gun laws, immigration, economics, religion, health and presidency.

When issues are polarised, the voice and influence of moderation is lost, whether that is Arizona, Australia or Afghanistan. When moderation is lost, the lunatics feel free to say and do as they please, and sometimes end up in charge of the asylum.

This newspaper has argued that a national conversation about policy should be based on evidence, but even a well-intentioned newspaper sometimes struggles to provide evidence over emotion, dialogue over demonisation, intelligence over insults, sophistication over celebrity, substance over sound bite.

It is a challenging environment, and it is difficult to see change and history when you are going through it. Distance gives us some perspective, making it easier to see the problems in places such as the US, where senior politicians, policymakers, judges and academics lament the din of bigotry, ignorance, irresponsibility and self-interest.

The imam behind the so-called Ground Zero mosque, Feisal Abdul Rauf, has highlighted the challenge: "The real battlefront is not between the West and the Muslim world. It's between the moderates of all faith traditions and the extremists or radicals, and I include in that the agnostic and atheist community. The radicals are unwitting partners. They fuel each other.

''The moderates have become the silent majority, but we are the majority."

Australians might disapprove of and dismiss the extremism we see overseas, but the country would benefit from a deeper reflection on how this polarisation has become so ingrained in the lingua franca.

Australian political and business leaders are, generally, a moderate breed, but the US has issued a severe warning about the consequences of distorting the integrity of democracy, language and accountability.

A good sound bite might make for a feel-good news headline today, but it might also sow a poor legacy for many tomorrows.

If we seriously think we are better than the worst of American politics and society, then we ought to be seeing less polarisation in our conversations on issues such as immigration, education, water management, environment, mining and taxation.

The silent majority are moderates and they need to apply pressure to those who seek to win support on any issue on the basis of polarisation and oversimplification. Otherwise it is difficult to see how we will get sustainable, commonsense policy and increased civility and fairness.

We don't want our leaders saying it's time to reload against opponents, ban Muslims, seek divine retribution against rivals, kill Julian Assange, or assassinate foreign leaders. But if we don't want to risk descending to that level, we must find a way for all the people, other than the polarised, to be in the game.

[Steve Harris is executive director of the Centre for Leadership and Public Interest at Swinburne University.]

=============================================


Can't help noticing there is an uncanny likeness to Nana Mouskouri. Perhaps this is a big part of her subliminal appeal.


index.php/fa/16160/0/
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Chris Hallam.
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Bill_Urick

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2011, 10:26:55 am »

Sarah/Nana, Nana/Sarah.

Uma/Oprah, Oprah/Uma.

Dem/Rep, Rep/Dem.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=45c_1294637524


index.php/fa/16161/0/
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Good sense is, of all things among men, the most equally distributed; for everyone thinks himself so abundantly provided with it, that those even who are the most difficult to satisfy in everything else, do not usually desire a larger measure of this quality than they already possess.

Jay Kadis

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2011, 10:44:27 am »

Even when using the same kind of rhetoric, the left uses targets while the right uses cross-hairs.  That is a significant difference.

Dominick

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2011, 11:21:18 am »

 index.php/fa/16163/0/
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Dominick Costanzo

Bill_Urick

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2011, 06:53:50 pm »

Jay Kadis wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 10:44

Even when using the same kind of rhetoric, the left uses targets while the right uses cross-hairs.  That is a significant difference.


Hi, Jay. Hope all is well.

If the actual symbol is significant...

index.php/fa/16166/0/
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Good sense is, of all things among men, the most equally distributed; for everyone thinks himself so abundantly provided with it, that those even who are the most difficult to satisfy in everything else, do not usually desire a larger measure of this quality than they already possess.

Bill_Urick

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2011, 06:55:51 pm »

Please note that on the above map that the intersecting lines extend beyond the bounds of the circle as does the top symbol here:

index.php/fa/16167/0/
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Good sense is, of all things among men, the most equally distributed; for everyone thinks himself so abundantly provided with it, that those even who are the most difficult to satisfy in everything else, do not usually desire a larger measure of this quality than they already possess.

Bill_Urick

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2011, 06:58:25 pm »

Whereas crosshairs found on a rifle scope would look more like this:

index.php/fa/16169/0/


Your serve.
Smile
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Good sense is, of all things among men, the most equally distributed; for everyone thinks himself so abundantly provided with it, that those even who are the most difficult to satisfy in everything else, do not usually desire a larger measure of this quality than they already possess.

DarinK

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2011, 07:13:12 pm »

Of course, Palin announced that map with a tweet that said "Don't Retreat, Reload,"  and she used that phrase several times after that.
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Bill_Urick

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2011, 07:15:08 pm »

Edit-Wouldn't know. I don't follow her "tweets".

I was really hoping we were going to give this one a miss.
But, here we are.

Let's remember what's really important right now.
Wishing healing to the families of all the victims.
Wishing a speedy recovery to those injured.

Personally I hope Ms. Giffords is back to work, voting as she sees fit, as quickly as possible.

This was not a political act and does not need to be politicised.

But hey, it's a shame to let a good crises go to waste, isn't it?
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Good sense is, of all things among men, the most equally distributed; for everyone thinks himself so abundantly provided with it, that those even who are the most difficult to satisfy in everything else, do not usually desire a larger measure of this quality than they already possess.

Paul Cavins

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2011, 09:35:41 pm »

Life is a Rorschach test. This tragic event, for the Left, HAD TO BE a result of their enemies' wrongfulness. Paul Krugman didn't wait more than a couple of hours before he blamed it on the RIght.

The left sees everything in the world through their hatred of their political enemies.

There is absolutely no political angle on this tragedy, or at least there shouldn't be.

We should all just wish the victims  and their families well.

PC
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Hallams

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2011, 10:10:11 pm »

Paul Cavins wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 13:35

Life is a Rorschach test. This tragic event, for the Left, HAD TO BE a result of their enemies' wrongfulness. Paul Krugman didn't wait more than a couple of hours before he blamed it on the RIght.

The left sees everything in the world through their hatred of their political enemies.

There is absolutely no political angle on this tragedy, or at least there shouldn't be.

We should all just wish the victims  and their families well.

PC



It is simply untrue that " There is absolutely no political angle on this tragedy....."

It is equally untrue that the rhetoric of the right is solely to blame.

It is a grave error of judgment for anyone to make any attempt at political scoring in the immediate aftermath of such a tragedy.

By far the main responsibility is with the perpetrator.

An objective assessment of the political culture within the USA would involve a critique such as that in the article i quoted in full in the first post. From that article, this quote is where i would hope some galvanizing of opinion within both Democrat and Republican parties would would focus :

"The moderates have become the silent majority, but we are the majority."

No party would want to lose face by making public statements for its constituency or leaders to curb and distance themselves from the violent vitriol and extremism that the article suggests is a grave threat to the health of a democracy.

There needs to be public debate and pressure put on political parties by the silent majority in the US for this to happen.....soul searching from within rather than accusation and finger pointing from each side to the other will to my mind be more productive.

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Chris Hallam.
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Paul Cavins

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2011, 10:25:34 pm »

Chris, I believe there should not be any political angle on this tragedy.

The perp is mentally ill. The great forces of fire that rage in our political debate did not influence this guy.

We shouldn't be learning lessons from deranged wack jobs.

I have no problem discussing the merits of moderation in political discourse, but this is not the occasion. We will do damage to the truth if we allow this event to draw the parameters of debate.

We shouldn't conveniently use this tragedy to advance any ideas about anything, except sorrow, and maybe about how we deal with severely mentally ill people.

PC
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ssltech

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2011, 12:37:39 pm »

I don't see a PARTISAN cause at the root... I see a lack of respect and civility. -On both sides, but with the right perhaps having more commonly chosen slightly more 'unfortunate' terms.

No one raindrop is to blame for the flood; but I believe that the accumulated rising tide may very well have helped this madness to float... -It certainly wouldn't have done anything to discourage it.

I think that even without this sickening event, ANY time is a great time to examine the 'acceptability' of such uncivil shouting.

Keith
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

jonathan jetter

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2011, 03:20:32 pm »

clearly, what happened in Tucson is tragic.  but i disagree with toning down any rhetoric, and i see it as essentially one more way for the government to minimize dissent.

certain belief systems are not as moral as others.  certain things are right, and certain things are wrong.  it is our obligation as decent people to fight for what is right.

i think this country is on a very, very wrong track.  and "civility" will lead to "compromise" will lead to "kicking the can further down the road when it comes to any attempt to deal with the deficit, with social security, with medicare, with the criminal oligarchy, etc etc."  while we're all playing at being nicer to each other, the debt will still increase at record levels.  the gap between the middle class and the elite will grow wider and wider.  foreclosure rates will still go up.  cost of living will still increase while real purchasing power decreases and unemployment stays high.

most national politicians and corporations do not deserve my respect or civility.

sarah palin does not deserve my respect or civility.  

wachovia and bank of america do not deserve my respect or civility:

 http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-06-29/banks-financing-mex ico-s-drug-cartels-admitted-in-wells-fargo-s-u-s-deal.html

the US Military does not deserve my respect or civility:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/germs.htm

and so on.

a certain amount of demagoguery is most always a necessary catalyst for any real change.

to say it another way:  extremists change the world.  Thomas Paine was an extremist.  so were Franklin and Adams and Jefferson. Malcolm X was an extremist. and Gandhi.  and Mandela.  and Kenyatta.
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Tidewater

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2011, 07:32:29 am »

Fuck this.

I own guns. Lots. I get pissed off. You see me shooting people?

This is bullshit. You will not take my speech, NOR will you take my guns.
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Tidewater

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2011, 08:35:51 am »

Crap this thing is messing up pictures.

index.php/fa/16173/0/
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Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2011, 08:47:20 am »

While China invests in their infrastructure, and mexico is now the 14th richest country in the world- this is what we bicker about.      While we waste all of our money on killing people, India is becoming our workforce.  The fact that S Palin is more than a housewife, just represents how truly f$%^$cked we are.  

The only thing that matters in America is a few news corporations make profits, some low level congressman get re-elected, and Bankers make money faster than usual.   All at the cost of our entire way of life.     Still no one is directing their frustrations at the bankers that juice a mortgage bubble, and refuse to loan to small business- and the politicians that filibuster low level appointees just so they can get a 3 min news clip that day on the 24 hr news channels!!!!

But hey, at least we still have cutting edge music, oh wait- thats gone too!!!!   Enjoy the "target vs. crosshairs" debate!!

cheers




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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

ssltech

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2011, 09:01:16 am »

jonathan jetter wrote

sarah palin does not deserve my respect or civility.  


-Actually, this attitude saddens me.

While I loathe what Sarah Palin has come to stand for, the day we can't be civil to one another is a very sad day.

I would say that -even though I dislike the movement which she fronts- she should be entitled to my civility I suppose... although I require that this be a two-way arrangement.

I do not hold high hopes that she has the class.
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Tidewater

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2011, 09:10:39 am »

I only wish her name was unknown so we could work at fixing issues, instead of waiting for saviours.

The lady gets a bad wrap. She deserves some of it, maybe. She isn't Barney Frank retarded. That guy is criminally insane.
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Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2011, 10:06:24 am »

Nobody would know her name if John Mccain did not have the deep inability to not see Barrack Obama as anything more than a celebrity "fluke", therefore reacting by creating a true celebrity "fluke".  Maybe those dark skinned eyes looking at him through cell bars during his many years of captivity had something to do with that perspective.

The thing that always got me was, with all those years being tortured and mal-nourished in captivity, that has to do some damage to a mans heart/body.   Thus making it way too possible for this prom queen to be the leader of the free world with him having way too big of a chance of dying at his age of natural causes if elected!!!    I would not want her in charge of my Studio , let alone my country!!  That shit is really scary!!   Its really insulting actually!!!


Damn it!! just when I take the high road two posts back, they drag me back down to the mud!! Smile
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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2011, 10:11:01 am »

If this is who you choose out of all the people on this planet as the "smartest" and most "experienced"!!  You have serious problems!!  How the hell any grown adult can hold up a Palin sign and smile is wayyy beyond me!!   Come on?!?!?   This is not Republican/conservative  bashing- there is a lot of smart people who use that label and are very valuable to our country, its just calling a joke a joke!!!

The fact that these people go from G W to Palin when there are many smart people in their camp will always be a mystery to me!!    
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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

Strummer

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2011, 10:53:24 am »

"What's so funny about peace love and understanding"

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Paul Cavins

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2011, 11:18:27 am »


Strummer wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 10:53

"What's so funny about peace love and understanding"






Amen to that. The Three Stooges slapping each other is what is funny.
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Jay Kadis

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2011, 12:13:07 pm »

"It's the media, stupid!"

As long as there's money in stirring the pot, they will.

jonathan jetter

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2011, 05:05:33 pm »

ssltech wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 09:01

jonathan jetter wrote

sarah palin does not deserve my respect or civility.  


-Actually, this attitude saddens me.



she is stupid.  she is shameless.  and she has left my country worse off than it was before she started her career.  i want nothing to do with her, nor with anyone who follows her.

while we're all busy being nice to each other, the banks and the politicians are robbing us blind.  those who operate under the guise of "conservatism" are often the worst offenders (Ron Paul being a notable exception).  it doesn't matter if you and i think class warfare is real or not, because the other side has already made that decision.
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el duderino

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2011, 07:10:44 pm »

Paul Cavins wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 22:25


The perp is mentally ill. The great forces of fire that rage in our political debate did not influence this guy.

We shouldn't be learning lessons from deranged wack jobs.

I have no problem discussing the merits of moderation in political discourse, but this is not the occasion. We will do damage to the truth if we allow this event to draw the parameters of debate.

We shouldn't conveniently use this tragedy to advance any ideas about anything, except sorrow, and maybe about how we deal with severely mentally ill people.

PC


Exactly. I don't understand how the left and right continue to blame each other and now some on the left are calling for bringing back the assault weapons ban.

The prudent thing to do, imo, would be to address dealing with mentally ill people. Which would probably be a hell of a lot harder to do and would certainly include keeping guns out of their hands anyway. But "assault weapons ban" is a catchy sound bite, for both sides.
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Gio

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2011, 07:23:45 pm »

jonathan jetter wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 17:05


she is stupid.  she is shameless.  and she has left my country worse off than it was before she started her career.

Man, you give her waaaay too much credit.
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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2011, 05:06:43 pm »

Th truth is its all a big chess game.  The left feeds into this hoping that she splits the republican party.   Now that she cant rile up anger after the tuscon shootings, shes done!!!

I'd still bang the shit out her, willow's pretty hot too!!!!
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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

ssltech

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2011, 05:47:07 pm »

Bubba#$%Kron wrote

I'd still bang the shit out her, willow's pretty hot too!!!!



See... -THIS is the sort of respectful, civil discussion which I'm thinking about.

-Seriously though, while I REALLY don't like Sarah Palin, while I HATE the idea of having as leader who may be significantly less clever than I am, and while I surely dislike many of the principles, there are some basic fundaments which -for me- delineate the thin end of the wedge.

If we can't have a civil discussion just because we don't like someone, then I don't believe that we'll ever be able to move forward.

If anyone reading what I write doesn't agree with me, or holds an entirely contrary opinion or feeling, that's PERFECTLY fine. -But if they think that -because I'm somehow "wrong" that the basic requirement that they don't treat me like I'm less than a nugget of dung doesn't apply... then I want no part of a society which believed that to be in ANY way acceptable.

Keith
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

DarinK

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2011, 05:57:01 pm »

ssltech wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 14:47

Bubba#$%Kron wrote

I'd still bang the shit out her, willow's pretty hot too!!!!



See... -THIS is the sort of respectful, civil discussion which I'm thinking about.

-Seriously though, while I REALLY don't like Sarah Palin, while I HATE the idea of having as leader who may be significantly less clever than I am, and while I surely dislike many of the principles, there are some basic fundaments which -for me- delineate the thin end of the wedge.

If we can't have a civil discussion just because we don't like someone, then I don't believe that we'll ever be able to move forward.

If anyone reading what I write doesn't agree with me, or holds an entirely contrary opinion or feeling, that's PERFECTLY fine. -But if they think that -because I'm somehow "wrong" that the basic requirement that they don't treat me like I'm less than a nugget of dung doesn't apply... then I want no part of a society which believed that to be in ANY way acceptable.

Keith


I think the negative response to your very civilized attitude is due to the fact that many of us are tired of arguments about the discussion, rather than actually discussing the issues at hand, whatever they are.  It's a distraction/deflection from the point.  And it leads to lengthy detours where even those who agree find themselves arguing about the language being used.  
Having said that, I do believe it's best to criticize actions & ideas, not individuals.  But sometimes it's so much easier to just say, "Sarah Palin is disgusting" rather than, "Sarah Palin's views, ideas, behaviors & principles are such that they invoke in me a feeling of disgust."
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Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2011, 06:04:53 pm »

I smell a double standard!! Chicks can talk about how sexy obama is during the election and I cant say Sarah's hot, well she is!!  It was a compliment, even if I used vulgar locker room rhetoric!!  Not to mention the F word being thrown around in the other thread, this is a saloon - is'nt it?!!?

You do make good points though keef, oh wait- that funny joke about your name means your racist- no - its funny!!!!! Wink Wink

cheers

ssltech wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 14:47

Bubba#$%Kron wrote

I'd still bang the shit out her, willow's pretty hot too!!!!



See... -THIS is the sort of respectful, civil discussion which I'm thinking about.

-Seriously though, while I REALLY don't like Sarah Palin, while I HATE the idea of having as leader who may be significantly less clever than I am, and while I surely dislike many of the principles, there are some basic fundaments which -for me- delineate the thin end of the wedge.

If we can't have a civil discussion just because we don't like someone, then I don't believe that we'll ever be able to move forward.

If anyone reading what I write doesn't agree with me, or holds an entirely contrary opinion or feeling, that's PERFECTLY fine. -But if they think that -because I'm somehow "wrong" that the basic requirement that they don't treat me like I'm less than a nugget of dung doesn't apply... then I want no part of a society which believed that to be in ANY way acceptable.

Keith

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ssltech

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2011, 09:01:10 pm »

Hey Bubba; I wasn't actually trying to bag on you or anything... I just used your post as an opportunity for some levity, and to return to my point.

-I think that if we DO take the time to ponder and reconsider, and that if SOME measure of civility can be restored as a result of this tragedy, then at least some good may result.

-Having said that, I watched Sarah Palin's video response to the shootings, and I was pretty disgusted right at 1:30 into the whole thing.

It started off with some not-particularly well read (I felt ZERO sincerity, and if it had been a voice-over session, I'd have been looking for someone else to read it, it was that level of unconvincing) and perfectly correct comments and expression of sympathy/condolence, but at ninety seconds in, it turned into a "those people shouldn't be blaming me... it's THEIR fault" defensive tirade.

Contrasting that with Obama's speech -which by contrast concentrated on a more hopeful and positive outlook- was an illuminating comparison.

Anyhow, I'm ready to try and improve how I speak of others. -If others would join me, perhaps at least tings might improve a little... though I fear that the AM radio 'format' might be less profitable if they dropped the (somewhat compelling for their target audience, I've no doubt) outrage. -If my read on that is true, I don't expect much improvement there.

Keith
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Tidewater

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2011, 11:28:13 pm »

Keith, keep on the real topics. You got sucked in again, and now I am sucked into defending her this much, again..

The reason it sounded written is because it was. She is on a media blitz to prove that we love her, we really love her, and all this 'turmoil' creates an op for the press to tell us that (for some ASS reason) everyone who is a celebrity must have an opinion... let's go live to the bathroom now!

She preempts perceived attacks with 3 days of edited strength.. no one asked for.. they plot, they plan.. what's the strategy.... hmmm..

I think the president is just the same dumbass for all his shenanigans related to the subject as well.. they ALL are morons, and I don't need them to explain a damned thing to me.

He plans.. he plots... what's the strategy.. hmm...

They all plan, plot, and strategize until they have the perfect catch phrases.

Empty bullshit is what they come up with. It's like not being a Dylan fan, and having to listen to the b-sides on a loop.

Also, what's this illusion that I am supposed to care about every other living person in a brotherhood of mankind? I don't. Neither do these liars. At least I am honest. That is humanity for you.
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jonathan jetter

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2011, 12:54:03 am »

ssltech wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 21:01



-I think that if we DO take the time to ponder and reconsider, and that if SOME measure of civility can be restored as a result of this tragedy, then at least some good may result.

....

Anyhow, I'm ready to try and improve how I speak of others. -If others would join me, perhaps at least tings might improve a little... though I fear that the AM radio 'format' might be less profitable if they dropped the (somewhat compelling for their target audience, I've no doubt) outrage. -If my read on that is true, I don't expect much improvement there.



keith,

in regard to conversation between you and me, i certainly would agree.  or between you and most people, or between me and most people.

but when it comes to interaction between me and, say, the CEO of Goldman Sachs, or a United States senator, or the RNC Chairman, and so on, then no.  civility has no place.  they are not human like we are human.  i do not respect their jobs as legitimate and i do not respect them as moral beings.

for you and me, and most of the world, our fortunes rise and fall in parallel with those of the people we work with, live with, and befriend.  our self-interest most often coincides with what is best for our fellow men.  if you work hard for a client, and he ends up with with a better album, he is more likely to find success.  his success will increase your exposure, and so on.

for the bankers and the politicians and the defense contractors, they make their fortunes at the expense of the welfare and/or lives of the rest of us.  the pentagon loses track of 2 trillion dollars.  KBR electrocutes soldiers because it can't be troubled to properly install electrical wiring at military bases.  goldman defrauds its investors and pays some trivial fine to the SEC.  the politicians watch it all happen and do nothing.

thoughts?

jon
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2011, 07:31:31 am »

jonathan jetter wrote on Tue, 18 January 2011 05:54

in regard to conversation between you and me, i certainly would agree.  or between you and most people, or between me and most people.

but when it comes to interaction between me and, say, the CEO of Goldman Sachs, or a United States senator, or the RNC Chairman, and so on, then no.  civility has no place.  they are not human like we are human.  i do not respect their jobs as legitimate and i do not respect them as moral beings.


What elitist, misguided and hateful bollocks.

Bankers and Senators are human beings, like everyone else. They have strengths and weaknesses, they have good sides and bad sides, they are as different to each other as they are similar to everyone else.

They are responsible for bigger things, so when they do wrong (either by accident or by design) it affects more people to a greater degree than when people in less powerful jobs do so, so we should wish for them to be as good and as competent as possible, better than the average, so we shouldn't go too easy on them when they screw up.

Some individuals may be genuinely nasty pieces of work, but to attribute sub human characteristics to a whole group of people because of their chosen profession, professions which are necessary in our current political and economic systems, is just bollocks.
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ssltech

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2011, 08:19:42 am »

jonathan jetter wrote

thoughts?

jon



I hear you, and please appreciate that I share many of your feelings regarding her capability; or more specifically the lack of it.

However, even if you think that someone else is as honorable as a sewer rat, the moment that we declare that we don't have to be civil to them is the moment that we meet them at their level... and now we have TWO sewer rats and NO honor.

This may sound like an absurd over-extension, but if we abandon civility then we may as well abandon hope. -The very word 'Civilization' means a collective agreement to behave in a civil manner. -Abandoning civility is -literally- the very definition of the breakdown of civilization.

In another analogy which may initially seem over-reaching, the shooting spree in Tucson could also be regarded as one (albeit highly deranged) individual deciding for themself that due process and civility weren't getting him anywhere, and that a more direct approach was -in his view- therefore justified... -Again, please forgive it it seems like an exaggerated comparison, however due process and civility are enshrined in our constitution to the point that we are obliged to give this person shelter, assistance and medical help while we think about what he deserves; even if it means that we eventually electrocute, shoot, or poison him. -I know that could be viewed as bizarre, but this basic constitutional entitlement to civility is one of the genuinely DECENT things about this country that I admire and respect. -The lives of millions in Russia, Zimbabwe, and more countries than I could even contemplate would be immeasurably improved if they had just that fundamental constitutional entitlement.

Keith
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

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Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2011, 11:45:04 am »

Shes tearing us apart people, I blame her for the new forum switch also-just kidding!!! Smile   Its true, civility is crucial and you do have to feel bad for a person like that when she googles herself.

She is still a person, and this is america- regardless of what we think of her she did make her way to vice pres. nomination - that is quite an accomplishment and she is not as low as bin laden and should not be treated in the same manner. I agree with you Keith!!

The most interesting aspect of Obamas presidency is the fact that he is trying to make everything as boring as possible on purpose.  Because of Monica Lewinsky, Bush, and 9/11, the news has turned the american political system into a huge reality tv show - people on both sides of the aisle wake up and watch TV all day because of this.    Everyone thought Obama was going to be a reality show president, but he is quite the opposite. His goal is to make things go back to the way it has been for hundreds of years, very boring serious stuff.  He will only bring out the show horses when truly needed and its better for the country.

The news channels dont have anything to talk about and Palin is always good fodder.  Their ratings are going down and people  get less and less phyco angry every month.   Its boring as hell, but we are gonna be way better off because of it.  Its fun to pick up on the battle between news producers and Obama, but Ratings are the only thing that matters to them - and pitting blue and red against each other should be left in the sports stadiums IMO!

Cheers
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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2011, 03:50:02 pm »

"We can't tell our left from right, but we KNOW we love extremes,
Getting to grips with the ups & downs because there's nothing in between..."
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

jonathan jetter

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2011, 01:13:14 am »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 18 January 2011 07:31



What elitist, misguided and hateful bollocks.

Bankers and Senators are human beings, like everyone else. They have strengths and weaknesses, they have good sides and bad sides, they are as different to each other as they are similar to everyone else.

They are responsible for bigger things, so when they do wrong (either by accident or by design) it affects more people to a greater degree than when people in less powerful jobs do so, so we should wish for them to be as good and as competent as possible, better than the average, so we shouldn't go too easy on them when they screw up.

Some individuals may be genuinely nasty pieces of work, but to attribute sub human characteristics to a whole group of people because of their chosen profession, professions which are necessary in our current political and economic systems, is just bollocks.


hi Jon,

to be fair, i can think of several current/recent elected officials who have grown their proverbial balls and have overall done right for their nation:

Ron Paul
Russell Feingold
Paul Wellstone
Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins (not always, but more often than not)
Kirsten Gillibrand (again not always, but more often than not)
James Traficant (a rather serious fuckup who nonetheless managed to shift the burden of proof in civil tax cases from the taxpayer to the IRS)
and i'm sure a few more who i can't think of right now.

but, then, to balance (or overbalance) the scale:

 http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main32 5985.shtml

 http://www.fiercehealthfinance.com/story/medicare-overpays-w heelchairs/2010-11-30

 http://articles.cnn.com/2008-05-28/us/soldier.electrocutions _1_electrocuted-shower-painful-death?_s=PM:US

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Worldwide_arms_smugg ling_claims

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20003526-503544.html

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/1/16/133331/558

 http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main30360 1.shtml

and that's just from 5 minutes of searching on the issues that were foremost in my mind while semi-drunk at 1:00 a.m.  if i am interpreting correctly, i think you are assessing the problem as one of a handful of bad apples, whereas i see the lying/corruption/fraud as endemic, and see the few good politicians as the stark exception to the rule.

regards,

jon

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Fenris Wulf

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2011, 02:50:42 am »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 18 January 2011 12:31

jonathan jetter wrote on Tue, 18 January 2011 05:54

in regard to conversation between you and me, i certainly would agree.  or between you and most people, or between me and most people.

but when it comes to interaction between me and, say, the CEO of Goldman Sachs, or a United States senator, or the RNC Chairman, and so on, then no.  civility has no place.  they are not human like we are human.  i do not respect their jobs as legitimate and i do not respect them as moral beings.


What elitist, misguided and hateful bollocks.


Anti-elitism is now elitist.

Awesome.
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ssltech

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2011, 08:07:49 am »

Fenris Wulf wrote

Anti-elitism is now elitist.
Awesome.


I don't read Jonathan's post as anti-elitist.

-To me, it simply expresses indignation and revulsion at corruption etc. -Wherever it may happen. Nothing particularly wrong with that, and that's certainly not where we differ; rather only in whether or not such people are entitled to be dealt with in a civilized manner.

Keith
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Jon Hodgson

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2011, 08:47:04 am »

Fenris Wulf wrote on Wed, 19 January 2011 07:50



Anti-elitism is now elitist.

Awesome.


I don't see anything anti-elitist about declaring whole employment groups to be some sort of sub species... "they are not human like we are human"... whether those groups are those with money and power, or those without.

Maybe because I think of the term as meaning "Anti those who are Elitist" (i.e. think they are better than others and can treat them accordingly) as opposed to "Anti 'The Elite'" (which is a term I don't really accept, a skillset can make you elite in your field, being rich or powerful does not make you elite).
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Jay Kadis

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2011, 10:28:44 am »

While they're unfortunately all too human, those responsible for the subversion of  our economic and political system for personal gain should be held responsible.

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2011, 01:42:31 pm »

Jay Kadis wrote on Wed, 19 January 2011 10:28

While they're unfortunately all too human, those responsible for the subversion of  our economic and political system for personal gain should be held responsible.



And do you posit that these people are primarily Republican?
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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2011, 01:52:42 pm »

Fiasco wrote on Wed, 19 January 2011 10:42

Jay Kadis wrote on Wed, 19 January 2011 10:28

While they're unfortunately all too human, those responsible for the subversion of  our economic and political system for personal gain should be held responsible.



And do you posit that these people are primarily Republican?
My guess would be >50%.

jonathan jetter

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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2011, 02:04:43 pm »

Fiasco wrote on Wed, 19 January 2011 13:42

Jay Kadis wrote on Wed, 19 January 2011 10:28

While they're unfortunately all too human, those responsible for the subversion of  our economic and political system for personal gain should be held responsible.



And do you posit that these people are primarily Republican?


primarily, yes.

though i would have no problem also blaming Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Lieberman, and many others.

and i don't think party affiliation really matters all that much.  all the institutions that wield real power most definitely have their hooks deep in to both parties.
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Re: Extremism's explosive effects....... (formally Sarah/Nana???)
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2011, 02:22:08 pm »

I joined the Green Party more than 10 years ago.  They most closely represent my interests and reject corporate sponsorship.  The major parties are of a single mind when it comes to the influence of big business, social issues aside.
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