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Author Topic: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?  (Read 13562 times)

Offline breathe

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Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« on: January 10, 2011, 09:42:37 am »
Is any audio technology made in China that isn't a total piece of crap?  It seems like with every company, when they decide to move the manufacturing over to China, the build quality (and QC) becomes nonexistent.

Nicholas



Offline breathe

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2011, 09:53:56 am »
I'm just pissed about the Walmartification of America.

Nicholas




Offline Barry Hufker

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2011, 10:07:04 am »
Yes, at least one "audio technology" is beautifully made -- Eastman guitars.  While not specifically "audio" but rather "musical", Eastman guitars are gorgeous instruments rivaling the best of anyone's.  They are hand-made in China. I own the PG1 and it is simply a marvelous instrument.

Barry


Offline Wireline

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2011, 10:17:19 am »
Most ADDA interfaces?  Any computer used to record anything digital? Most (all?) soundcards/FW interconnects?

Most (all?) of the actual components inside your hi end "made in USA" stuff?

Almost all tubes

If you use any electronic device, you owe it to the Chinese..get used to it.
Ken Morgan
Wireline Studio
Midland, Texas
www.wirelinestudio.com

Offline Bill_Urick

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2011, 10:23:17 am »
I have a Recording King banjo that I'm very happy with, although it is round, not angular.

Most keyboard stuff I've worked on with Chinese assemblies seem to have suffered in quality from the Sino contributions.
OEM'ing a line of electronic pianos to China seems to be responsible for pretty much destroying at least the American distributer of General Music.

They do make pretty good mic pres, though...
Cool

Edit:

Quote:

Almost all tubes


Haven't knowingly used a Chinese made tube in 15 years.
Russian/East European or NOS, baby.
Good sense is, of all things among men, the most equally distributed; for everyone thinks himself so abundantly provided with it, that those even who are the most difficult to satisfy in everything else, do not usually desire a larger measure of this quality than they already possess.

Offline pete andrews

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2011, 10:31:33 am »
+1 on the Recording King!!!
bill - which model do you have?
here's mine... rb or rk 80? something like that...

index.php/fa/16137/0/

-pete

Offline Bill_Urick

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2011, 12:13:00 pm »
Not sure. Looks just like yours, tho.
What model is the Ampeg?

I love me some Ampeg.
Good sense is, of all things among men, the most equally distributed; for everyone thinks himself so abundantly provided with it, that those even who are the most difficult to satisfy in everything else, do not usually desire a larger measure of this quality than they already possess.

Offline Jim Williams

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2011, 01:08:56 pm »
Profit standards are very important to the Chinese.
Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Offline YZ

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2011, 01:56:32 pm »
Jim Williams wrote on Mon, 10 January 2011 16:08

Profit standards are very important to the Chinese.


And much more important to their Western OEM clients.

One doesn't see many ads for "Silver Flute" microphones in the Western world...

1 Chinese FET LDC mic: US$ 25-
1 Chrome head basket for above: US$ 3-
1 fancy packaging: US$ 5-
1 better shockmount: US$ 4-

TOTAL: US$ 37-

US Retail price for the above, under a different badge: US$ 199-.

Recently we had the Lexicon BD player fiasco, where they were selling for over US$3K a player that was no more than a "Oppo" brand player with a new faceplate, a player sold (retail) for US$ 399.

One can only imagine, based on the above examples, what are the real costs paid by famous brands for other merchandise they sell around here that were also sourced from China.

True story: a few years ago a traditional local manufacturer of specialty lighting fixtures (Xmas lights, etc) complained to my father that he was about to lose his family's 4-generation business: the Chinese equivalents of his products were being sold as contraband in the streets for less that what it was costing him just for the packaging of his local products so his sales were dropping near the break-even point.

He found the solution: closed his production lines, kept the sales dept, started importing the product, then sold regularly in stores as usual (not in the streets) for half of his former price - and at 5 times the profit - aided by the traditional brand name he owns.

So who's the greedy one?

Now if you, Jim, get a $30 Chinese mic, use your superior knowledge and design new electronics for it, adds your labor or the labor of an employee overseen by you and offer the improved result for whatever price you deem fit, that's alright: you have added value, labor and your intellectual property; it is a custom job.

But a price-jacked OEM thing? Nope.

To think that at $30 the Chinese plant is making a profit...  and realize that if they implemented first-class QC and a little more attention during development they could churn out very good product at not much more than that!
regards,

YZ

Offline Bill_Urick

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2011, 02:30:08 pm »
Let's get the AFL-CIO over there to start organizing.
That could solve lots of problems.
Good sense is, of all things among men, the most equally distributed; for everyone thinks himself so abundantly provided with it, that those even who are the most difficult to satisfy in everything else, do not usually desire a larger measure of this quality than they already possess.

Offline pete andrews

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2011, 02:56:52 pm »
bill -
it's a 70's SVT with a Fliptops.net 1x15 cab i had made for it... it's the small box i use when i don't want to wheel around the 70's 2x15. the low end on the thing is ridiculous. perfect bass cab as far as i'm concerned.

pete

Offline Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2011, 08:46:08 pm »
Happy ending anyone?
"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

Offline compasspnt

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2011, 08:54:07 pm »
A P P L E.

Offline J.J. Blair

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2011, 09:21:24 pm »
Is this a trick question?

Honestly, they control their quality only to the extent that their OEM clients make them.  
studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Offline ssltech

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2011, 09:55:46 pm »
J.J. Blair wrote on Mon, 10 January 2011 21:21

Is this a trick question?

Honestly, they control their quality only to the extent that their OEM clients make them.  


Or -think of it another way- Do we go to the Chinese because their standards are consistently high, or do we go because their costs are cheap?

I'm conflicted to admit that I get stuff made in china (circuit boards etc) because if I paid US prices, people would grumble about the cost of the finished product.

Rupert Neve's stuff is all assembled in the USA because he can't assure people that the quality of a Chinese-built product would be as good, and because he has staked a reputation upon quality which will bring buyers at higher prices.

Not so Presonus/Behringer/Digidesign.

Also, the amount of back-door product duplication from ANYTHING of any perceived merit or value is simply staggering. -Shure microphones for example.

I don't have the reputation or 'brand value' to worry about either of these matters so much.

But China builds down to a price, not up to a standard.

"This is Hotel Bastardos, -you want soft-a-toilet-paper? -You go to hotel sweetcheeks, down the road."

China is cheap. You can't reasonably buy Chinese and then be indignant about quality any more than you can buy a Hyundai and complain that it isn't a Rolls-Royce.

Keith
MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Offline YZ

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2011, 10:13:31 pm »
J.J. Blair wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 00:21

Honestly, they control their quality only to the extent that their OEM clients make them.  


Exactly.
regards,

YZ

Offline Barry Hufker

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2011, 12:35:30 am »
My friend Peter who works in China told me last week that because salaries are rising in China, soon it will no longer be the place to have things made cheaply.  That "honor" will soon fall upon "lesser" countries.

Barry


Offline J.J. Blair

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2011, 02:56:45 am »
Keith, I was making a comparison between, say, SE mics, and Apple.  SE can make things as shitty as they want.  The stuff that comes from Apple has to meet a certain standard.  Apple also has work practice standards for any factory that builds for them.  
studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Offline MagnetoSound

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2011, 07:11:57 am »
ssltech wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 02:55

"This is Hotel Bastardos, -you want soft-a-toilet-paper? -You go to hotel sweetcheeks, down the road."




E-v'rybody happy ... ooh la-la-la-la!



Music can make me get right up out of my chair and start dancing or it can get me so pumped up I have to walk around the block.
It can also knock me back and make me sit there and cry like a little baby. This shit is as powerful as any drug!!!
- Larry DeVivo


Offline ssltech

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2011, 08:47:01 am »
MagnetoSound wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 07:11

ssltech wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 02:55

"This is Hotel Bastardos, -you want soft-a-toilet-paper? -You go to hotel sweetcheeks, down the road."




E-v'rybody happy ... ooh la-la-la-la!





What team do you support?
-Watford.
Well, I say Watford can't play!
-I agree.
Well then, I say they CAN play.. they just need a new manager!
-Yes, you're probably right.

...anyway... You're going to DIE!!!

Wink
MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Offline MagnetoSound

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2011, 09:19:37 am »

Very Happy


Music can make me get right up out of my chair and start dancing or it can get me so pumped up I have to walk around the block.
It can also knock me back and make me sit there and cry like a little baby. This shit is as powerful as any drug!!!
- Larry DeVivo


Offline ssltech

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2011, 09:24:08 am »
J.J. Blair wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 02:56

Keith, I was making a comparison between, say, SE mics, and Apple.  SE can make things as shitty as they want.  The stuff that comes from Apple has to meet a certain standard.  Apple also has work practice standards for any factory that builds for them.  


Excellent point, JJ. -An example which I'd overlooked, in fact.

I suppose that Apple brings sufficient 'muscle' to prevent the back-door problems, also.

Keith
MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Offline Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2011, 09:32:10 am »
Hey Kieth,

any parts of a ssl made in China?  Just curious!

Thanks
"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

Offline ssltech

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2011, 10:17:34 am »
Some sub assemblies; on stuff like the Alpha-link etc.

But mainly, no... -which explains the high prices, of course!  Very Happy
MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Offline mell

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2011, 04:23:38 pm »
i heard from a few people over there that for instance microphones used in broadcast there are of a much higher buildquality then what they use for export, anyone who can confirm this?

Offline Haolemon

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2011, 09:19:41 pm »
I agree.  I think that the Chinese could build something at any quality level which was required, as long as they were paid accordingly.  People are going there to get cheap production, so that they can sell U47 wannabes cheaply here.

Now, whether the chinese have the ability in their engineering population to advance the state of the art, I don't know.  Just from reading about it, SE electronics looks like it might be trying that.

Offline mell

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2011, 05:22:16 pm »
from personal experience, they cant recreate the trafo thats inside a C414 for example, ..i know cause i send MY chinese contact a non-functional C414 of my own collection , they are trying to figure out how they made the capsules and the trafo's , the guy had to travel 2500km to pick it up personally normally you cant do that, he is very thankfull that i did ...

Offline Barry Hufker

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2011, 04:46:52 pm »
I'm not sure how I feel about sending someone something for the sole purpose of stealing intellectual property...

Am I reading this incorrectly?

Barry


Offline YZ

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2011, 07:43:41 am »
Haolemon wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:19

I agree.  I think that the Chinese could build something at any quality level which was required, as long as they were paid accordingly.
Now, whether the chinese have the ability in their engineering population to advance the state of the art, I don't know.


I am sure some of their engineers are able to advance the state of the art; they just don't have any motivation to do it.

Yet.
regards,

YZ

Offline mell

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2011, 05:28:13 pm »
why wouldnt they have any motivation to do that? the domestic market is a different market then what they sell to us, ..they can and are producing state of the art "products" , we just dont see it cause the export is simply build by the lowest bidder

Offline Fletcher

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2011, 08:51:17 am »
mell wrote on Fri, 18 February 2011 17:28

why wouldnt they have any motivation to do that? the domestic market is a different market then what they sell to us, ..they can and are producing state of the art "products" , we just dont see it cause the export is simply build by the lowest bidder


Is this first hand knowledge - and can you cite reference material that supports your statement... or is this conjecture.  

Sounds like bullshit to me.

Peace.
CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch.  
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm


Offline jazzbass

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2011, 06:48:33 am »
Barry Hufker wrote on Mon, 10 January 2011 07:07

Yes, at least one "audio technology" is beautifully made -- Eastman guitars.  While not specifically "audio" but rather "musical", Eastman guitars are gorgeous instruments rivaling the best of anyone's.  They are hand-made in China. I own the PG1 and it is simply a marvelous instrument.

Barry



Except they seem to use "green" wood sometimes. I've seen 3 beautifully figured double basses crack (top cracks) and 2 archtop jazz guitars crack.


bob
"If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong".

Offline Barry Hufker

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Re: Do build quality standards mean anything to the Chinese?
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2011, 04:28:34 pm »
I haven't seen more Eastman guitars than the one I own.  It is fabulous.

Barry