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Author Topic: tenor guitar ?  (Read 24110 times)

McAllister

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tenor guitar ?
« on: November 27, 2010, 11:28:37 PM »

Does anyone here play tenor guitar?

As a long time bassist & ukulele player (what can I tell you, 4 strings speak to me) I'm interested but know little about them.

Thanks.
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Les Ismore

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2010, 12:12:58 AM »

Traditionaly they are tuned in 5ths like a mandolin but lower, CGDA. they were built so that people who played the tenor banjo could play the guitar without having to learn a new tuning. (back in the early part of the 20th century)
But you can tune them any way you like. If you are used to 4ths you could tune them that way, (like guitar but without the top strings) or like the high strings of a guitar.
If you want to learn to play in 5ths, it's a bit of a stretch for some things on your fingers on this large an instrument.
Lot's of people experiment with different tunings. Have fun!
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ratite

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2010, 11:47:04 AM »

This is very cool,just got mine today.Hell,it's a plastic guitar but it's got some good tones.In an interview Warren Ellis says it's a very stringy sound  and that's a pretty good summation.
http://www.myrareguitars.com/warren-ellis-signature-tenor-gu itar-from-eastwood
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Sarusan

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2010, 11:53:10 PM »

Chris Still's first solo record has a lot of tenor guitar on it.
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Spindrift

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2010, 08:54:57 PM »

That lovely Neko Case plays one quite a bit. See the Blacklisted and Fox Confessor records.
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d gauss

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2010, 09:47:12 AM »

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faganking

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2010, 10:04:28 AM »

Ry Cooder is an aficionado of the tenor guitar.
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Mikes

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2010, 10:22:29 AM »




I have a 6-string Danelectro with two lipstick PU's tuned a 4th (sometimes 5th) below standard guitar tuning.  I guess there are 4-string models as well.

Mine was cheap and sounds great on every track I used it on.  Best via Vibro Champ, Princeton or Deluxe Reverb.   Never digged the Kustom (solid state) amps some folks recommend for bariton.


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faganking

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2010, 12:06:33 PM »

Mikes wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 10:22




I have a 6-string Danelectro with two lipstick PU's tuned a 4th (sometimes 5th) below standard guitar tuning.  I guess there are 4-string models as well.

Mine was cheap and sounds great on every track I used it on.  Best via Vibro Champ, Princeton or Deluxe Reverb.   Never digged the Kustom (solid state) amps some folks recommend for bariton.






Baritone guitar.
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Benjy King

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maarvold

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2010, 12:31:18 PM »

faganking wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 09:06

Mikes wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 10:22




I have a 6-string Danelectro with two lipstick PU's tuned a 4th (sometimes 5th) below standard guitar tuning.



Baritone guitar.


That's what I've heard the guitar described above called as well.  
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Michael Aarvold
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MagnetoSound

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2010, 12:41:31 PM »



The baritone guitars that I've seen have had a longer neck with a further five frets at the bottom. In other words, a standard guitar from the fifth fret up, but the open E chord is really a B.


Danelectro made one of those, is that what you are describing?

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2010, 12:45:08 PM »


Just occurred to me - what is a standard classical guitar, if not tenor?

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d gauss

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2010, 12:55:16 PM »

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4084/4976475605_92d7d9273d_z.jpg
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faganking

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2010, 01:55:55 PM »

I have three Baritone guitars. One is a 12 string.

Here is the Joe Veillette 12 string Baritone.


index.php/fa/15934/0/
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Benjy King

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faganking

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2010, 02:02:01 PM »

Chandler Baritone


index.php/fa/15935/0/
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Berolzheimer

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2010, 02:25:23 PM »

So the Tenor is tuned like a 'cello (& mandocello), right?
Hmm.....
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Mikes

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2010, 06:16:23 PM »



maarvold wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 18:31

faganking wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 09:06

Mikes wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 10:22




I have a 6-string Danelectro with two lipstick PU's tuned a 4th (sometimes 5th) below standard guitar tuning.



Baritone guitar.


That's what I've heard the guitar described above called as well.  



Sorry, I mixed it up.   Anyway - the Danelectro reissues I tried sound pretty good.  Maybe they do decent 4-string models, too?

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Geoff Emerick de Fake

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2010, 01:47:47 PM »

Berolzheimer wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 13:25

So the Tenor is tuned like a 'cello (& mandocello), right?
Hmm.....
No. The standard tenor guitar is GDAE, with the high E the same as the spanish guitar. That's the same tuning as violin or mandolin but an octave lower. The tessitura is not very different than the spanish guitar.
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Geoff Emerick de Fake

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2010, 01:52:33 PM »

Mikes wrote on Thu, 02 December 2010 17:16


the Danelectro reissues I tried sound pretty good.  Maybe they do decent 4-string models, too?
I have a longhorn bass that I use a lot. It has a nice deep sound in spite of being short scale. It is also very light; I can play for hours without resenting the weight.
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Berolzheimer

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2011, 10:51:25 PM »

Geoff Emerick de Fake wrote on Fri, 03 December 2010 10:47

Berolzheimer wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 13:25

So the Tenor is tuned like a 'cello (& mandocello), right?
Hmm.....
No. The standard tenor guitar is GDAE, with the high E the same as the spanish guitar. That's the same tuning as violin or mandolin but an octave lower. The tessitura is not very different than the spanish guitar.


Ah, Pete said "Traditionaly they are tuned in 5ths like a mandolin but lower, CGDA."

I just came across a lovely old Martin tenor at a friend's house, I tuned it in fifths but a whole step lower than a 'cello - I didn't want to stress the old strings on there & the neck- & it sounded very nice.
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Les Ismore

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2011, 02:48:45 AM »

here's some quotes on this subject from:  http://www.tenorguitar.com/



"The tenor guitar is tuned exactly like a tenor banjo, and one of the major roles of the tenor guitar has been to allow tenor banjo players, and possibly mandolin family players, because of their similar tunings, to instantly double on the guitar without having to learn the scales and chord shapes for the entirely different tuning of a six string guitar.

The tenor guitar (and the tenor banjo) are tuned CGDA which is in "fifths", where the C is the note one octave below middle C

Because it is tuned in fifths, chord voicings are much more spread out than they are on a 6 string guitar. This is why if a "C" chord played on the six string and a "C" chord played on the four string tenor guitar, the tenor guitar "C" will sound much more 'open'.

It is also possible to tune a tenor banjo or guitar to another tuning in fifths using GDAE. This type of tuning is commonly associated with Irish music and the tuning is used because it involves playing with fiddles and mandolins, instruments that are also tuned to GDAE. The use of this tuning, however, is not restricted to this style of music."


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PP

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2011, 02:25:34 AM »

Quote: "Traditionaly they are tuned in 5ths like a mandolin but lower, CGDA."

- Snipped For Shortness -

Quote: "No. The standard tenor guitar is GDAE, with the high E the same as the spanish guitar."





The following are some thoughts on this matter.

My reasons for sharing those thoughts is not to side or argue with either position stated above, but rather, to provoke a little thought, and hopefully, enlightenment and understanding regarding these Musical Instruments.

The essential salient point to consider, is that if you are a large Musical Instrument Manufacturer, you need to be continually developing new ideas, and producing genuine advancement in your product, to encourage both new customers and existing customers to continue to keep buying your Instruments.

So, if we think about the most commonly popular Musical Instruments, like the Guitar or Piano, as these are the easiest to illustrate the point with by analogy, for example, we realise there are plenty of prototypes of 'evolutionary diversions', or hybrid mutations that exist where we find the accepted boundaries that define an Instrument, is undergoing evolutionary development, or being pushed or exceeded in some manner or another.

Every now and again, a hiatus is reached, and a new development is required or sometimes a return to what was there previously, for sometimes such developments are 'fashion' driven. And if you go back far enough, there was once a Harpsichord Manufacturer, that was losing ground to the popularity of the Guitar, which was an Instrument that appealed to both sexes and gaining ground amongst their well heeled clients. But the Harpsichord Manufacturer had an idea, he would buy a lot of Guitars (in an early form of their evolution) and gave them away to vagabonds, women of ill repute, anyone of low class, and he even taught them a few chords for good measure.

He actually gave away, so many of these Instruments, that because they had become associated with the lowest classes, the wealthy clients that had been deserting his business, began to avoid Guitars for fear of being tarred by  association. Such is the fickle of fashion. And the Dealers Harpsichord business flourished once more.




For a Musical Instrument to gain massive popular appeal, it needs to be co-joined to the Talents of an Outstanding Virtuoso, or the Music of a Notable Composer.

It needs to be 'IT'. So what does a large or growing Musical Instrument Manufacturer, do when the Musical World reaches a saturation in sales or some kind of hiatus?

Well, if we go back far enough, we can see that the idea that formed in their minds was to combine the virtues of two other Instruments and create a Hybrid Musical Instrument featuring some attributes of both. Such an Instrument can attract sales from new buyers enticed by the latest thing, and also attract sales from experts and less talented users alike, that already own one of both Instruments, the hybrid has been derived from.

So you got Instruments appearing, like the Banjolele a Hybrid of The Banjo and the Ukulele which was introduced by Alvin D. Keech in 1917 and popularized in Great Britain by the brilliant comedian of stage and screen George Formby. Sometimes they were called Ukulele Banjo's others Banjo Ukulele's, the Banjolele was also called Banjelele. But they were essentially hybrids of the most popular types of Instruments.

Mandolin Banjo's are another form of this hybrid, with an accompanying variety of ingenious names, inspired by sheer imagination, from various smaller Manufacturers. The stringing and tuning could vary a great deal depending on who the target purchasers were anticipated to be. And the design features of the Instrument also varied for precisely the same reason. Sometimes gut string was involved, others utilized steel strings. Sometimes the steel stung Instruments were double strung as in the case of Mandolin Banjo's.




But the point about the design of the Instruments aesthetics, stringing and tuning, would be related to making the Instrument appeal toward previous, or current users, of existing Instruments. And all this, through a time of great upheaval in the world, shifting populations, and economic strife. A smaller cheaper lighter Instrument was a way to stay in business.

And of course. During this time there was a great movement toward local 'Bands' of the same or closely related Instrument. These could feature Banjos, Guitars, Ukuleles, Mandolins, or one of the many hybrids, even Harmonicas.

And it is during such a time, in the mid 1920's, that the Tenor Guitar starts to appear in force. Country Music was one vehicle in the U.S.A. Jazz Bands another, but it's important to fully appreciate the economic and cultural dynamics, that surrounded its development and formulated its production. The atmosphere and environment, that it was born in to.

It is worth knowing that the earliest form of Martin Tenor's were not sought after because they didn't sound very good. Quite simply the amount of solid bracing on the Instruments top seemed to prevent the top from vibrating freely enough to deliver a really good sound. So nobody wanted them at first, until Martin revised their size and structure, to improve the sound. Not everything that is an 'oldie' is a 'goldie'.
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PP

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2011, 02:26:47 AM »

The truth is today there are about half a dozen different tuning possibilities available for a modern Tenor Guitar of Quality.

So this is simply not something to argue about, but rather explore to improve one's  global understanding of the matter. But the more common Instruments you will encounter, are tuned either as a Guitar in Europe or a Tenor Banjo, the latter in America especially.





As I wrote, there is no sense in arguing which is correct, as the real point about these newly created  Instruments, was that they could attract sales from a variety of camps, dependent upon what you preferred, unlike their established forebears. People seem to think that a Stradivarius Violin or a Torres Classical Guitar, must sound the absolute pinnacle of Quality for the Instrument. This is to entirely miss the essential point about them. The real point is, that these Great Instrument Makers, absolutely defined the essential dimensions and characteristics that contribute to the complete and utter distinction of the Instrument.  

Now although the owners of Washburn and not doubt others lost to time, claim to be the first Manufacturers of Tenor Guitars, I would tend not to accept that as Gospel, not that that is not the case. I don't really believe anyone truly knows, but the slim evidence we do have, would point that way, by respected authorities and is the best evidence we have. Certainly they were early in the game, that can be proven. And Instruments of this type were around from about 1907 but didn't really start to emerge as any kind of force until about 15-20 years later.

However, the most salient point I can make about Tenor Guitars is this. They emerged at a time when the Banjo, with its cutting sound that could 'tambourine like' be heard through the rest of the Band, was the chord rhythm Instrument most commonly in use in America, the largest market.

The Guitar with its mellower sound, was in the process of gradually replacing it, and would especially do so as better sound projecting Models evolved for Bands, and also as better methods of reproducing recordings, became available.

So what we are looking at is a new crossover Musical Instrument, that Banjo Players could easily adapt to, with a more mellow sound that looked like a Guitar. And that the Players were hip to the latest thing new thing.

Can you see the sense of this?

The historic chronology?

How it came about?



There are two reasons for the Tenor Banjo Tuning.

Firstly, the Banjo Players commonly found in Bands could immediately apply their existing knowledge of chords to this new Instrument. In the same way as Alto Sax Players double on the Clarinet because of the fingering and mouthpiece. (The Sax is not a Brass Instrument but belongs to the family of Reed Instruments, for the mouthpiece has a reed). But the left and right hand similarities of the Tenor Guitar gave an easy to play, but more mellow sound as opposed to a 'cutting percussive sound' as the 'Tonal Quality of Bands' evolved.

The second reason, and compass and range apart, is that this type of Tenor Banjo Tuning was more 'strident in sound' than a regular Guitar type of tuning, at a time when a normal Guitar Tuning would be struggling somewhat, to cut through the sound of the rest a Band.

If an Instrument cannot be properly heard through the Band acoustically, then it is not up to the task, therefore this point to my mind is more important than the Instruments Range or Compass. But speaking of Compass, these Instruments were at one time sold, marketed as 'Lead Guitars'. The bottom Strings of a Guitar tuned regularly, had little effect cutting through, and therefore were considered as possible to dispense with altogether. The top four Strings were the most commonly used in Solo String work, on those odd occasions it was used,  so this was the rationale behind this selling point. Marketing is a wonderful thing.

Many immigrants came to America, from Continental Europe, Great Britain and indeed Ireland where 'fiddling' is popular. And Violin, Mandolin, Viola and Cello Players therefore also took to this crossover tuning in fifths. And so, although I accept any point about Compass and Range, as entirely valid, I believe there were more fundamental, very basic reasons for this Tenor Banjo Tuning, that are not immediately obvious to everyone, especially those that have not heard it.

That's the rationale behind the Tenor Banjo / Mandolin / Mandola / Violin / Viola / Cello type of Tuning, and perhaps, rather more importantly, fingering.

(A Mandola is a larger deeper sounding Mandolin.)


But it's worth knowing that even a Tenor Banjo could be tuned as a Tenor, CGDA, Irish GDAE or Chicago Tuning DGBE the same as a Guitar. and have metal or gut strings.

I have seen and held Vintage Instruments with both. Similarly the Tenor Ukulele had three alternative Tunings.

So to my mind it is best not to be terribly dogmatic about this issue.

It suggests a limited 'Global' experience of the person speaking.
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PP

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2011, 02:28:25 AM »

However because I am English.

If you placed me in a difficult spot, and said.

"what is the true absolute tuning of the original Tenor Guitar".

I would offer this opinion, based upon my own personal experience, and limited knowledge of the Instrument and its history.



It is this.

In regard to a Tenor Guitar.

If the Instrument is a form of Guitar.

Then being germane to its origins, it would be tuned DGBE.

After all, it is a Tenor 'Guitar', and first created, by Notable Guitar Manufacturers.

It would be entirely to be expected for them to tune the Instrument originally, as if it were a form of Guitar.

I realise that this will put me completely at odds, with Internet self appointed experts, and I well understand anyone preferring their view.

I have no wish to change anybody minds, or argue I am right at all in any way, but rather to expand everyone's thoughts, knowledge and insight to deepen peoples understanding.

But this was the rationale for Manufacturers, Distributers, Dealers and Players in Europe, where the Banjo had not been a tour de force, but the Guitar dominated this field, and had done for Centuries in some form or another.



Furthermore.

A close friend of mine.

Very big and very highly experienced in Music Publishing.

Who last week, just retired from the business after a lifetime in it.

Accords with my memory, that in the late fifties and early sixties if you bought a Tenor Guitar Tutor Book.

It would advise you, that the correct tuning for that Instrument, as you were learning from a Book written by Tenor Guitar experts, is as I have written above. As the top strings of a regular Guitar.




And lastly.

A friend of mine whose Family featured Mayors of Oxford twice, thus highly respected, owned a Large Music and Instrument Store for many Generations, (including being owned by the Mayors), with their experience in Musical Instruments going back to 1811, when the business started. Anyway my elderly friend bought a block of land to house the Music Store in 1933, so he went back a long way.

I once asked him (in the sixties) how you tuned a Tenor Guitar. Straight off he told me, exactly as you would tune a normal Guitar. I later read some published Manuals on the Tenor Guitar, I think published by Mel Bay, and the Books affirmed his assertion that the Tuning was as a regular Guitar. I remember both the conversation and reading in the Manual. It's worth reflecting on the fact that contempory with this, major American Manufacturers were marketing electric models, still utilising the Banjo Tuning, but mainly for the home market. A soon to die breed.




These three reasons.

Form the sound basis of my belief for this.

But I think it helps to have an overall appreciation.

Of the many closely related forces and dynamics that  were at work.

American Bands commonly featured Banjo Players. In Europe the earlier forms of the Guitar had been historically the popular Instrument, certainly over the Banjo which although is thought by some to be related to early Guitar forms, is essentially a Stringed Drum created with and by 'Black Roots' and I expect this is at the bottom of any difference that exists in opinion.

The 'Black Roots' were far less a cultural influence throughout Europe during this period of history. So Instruments devised by such people were proportionately far less, and by and large crested with the take up of them by Music Hall Artists that ventured into the emerging Film Business.

When I was a youngster I would enact simple repairs to Banjos, Mandolin Banjo's Tenor Banjo's and all the multi-various derivatives. There's lots of them about in the U.K. at least that's how it seemed to me, probably because I attracted owners needing them fixed. But I suppose in relation to other Instruments, comparatively few.

Vellums made of Goat skins had to be fitted to them usually because the Instruments were Manufactured by small makers and had non-standard sized hoops and bodies. Real Vellums that were trimmed to fit were the only available option. The main difficulty being the unevenness of the skin across its whole with thicker and thinner areas.

My impression is, that Banjos and many of these "Crossover Instruments" like Tenors really Majored in America and spread across the Atlantic to Europe. The Guitar in some form or another, was already far better historically established in Europe and spread in the opposite direction. Almost all the greatest American Guitar Manufacturers were founded by European blood. Even though Americans commonly think of 'The Guitar' as an American Instrument. In fact, its history goes back to the Oud.

So it wouldn't surprise me at all in such a young country, to find a that an early American Tenor Guitar Tutor Book gave Tenor Banjo Tunings, although I have personally never seen one that did. But my essential point is I believe the Banjo Tuning for the Guitar was to help and facilitate Banjo Players in America.




The Banjo is essentially a Drum with Strings. If you have ever seen a 'Tuned Tambour' with side fasteners as a Drum and like a Tambourine without Jingles, but bigger like the Irish Tambours, or Bodhrans  and the type of what is commonly called in some places, a Tambor Drum, African's use with its tied Strings acting as Flailing Beaters also known as Damassas from the Peruvian mountains or Tik-Tak from Bali.

So its possible to see how these things came together and emerged as a new Instrument taking parts of a number of influences, that emulate a new form of 'Guitar' using rudimentary materials and skills. All these cultural influences were present.




In Europe, where the Banjo didn't have the same background, the Guitar and its predecessors, dominated and thus Tunings for such a style of Instrument as the Tenor Guitar for the brief period  in was in fashion if it ever really was at all here, would have naturally adopted a Guitar Tuning for it, because most Players played a "form of Guitar" and naturally would prefer to utilise the Tuning they were familiar with. Just as the Banjo Players had in America.

This is my rationale for the dichotomy. And in the complete absence of any other, the best explanation available to make the issues comprehendible. I'm not saying I am right, I simply believe this to be the best explanation. It comes after a lifetime, of observation, understanding the cycles of evolution in Musical Instrument Manufacturing.

The problem only comes, if and when 'Experts' and 'Avid Enthusiast's' insist that their viewpoint and understanding, obviously limited in character and nature, is the absolute truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about the matter in hand.

As with most things in life, the real truth is much more complex than the simple matter we would prefer to tidily tuck away in our minds. And Internet derived knowledge, alone is not sufficient to the task, with the greatest possible respect.




For instance.

Elsewhere on PSW I believe they are discussing the various early types of audio cassette.

In fact modern cassettes were originally derived from Stenorettes, Dictating Tape Machines, as well as quality models from tape cassette formats such as RCA who also had a large audio cassette.

Grundig had a DC Cassette that was somewhat larger than the normal heavily marketed DCC Compact Cassette, so a major challenge for them then. Even Revox had one developed as well, I remember. For I held many of them in my hands.

As usual sales and marketing determined a winner mainly (in my view) because their Phillips cassette machine was cheaper to buy, and easier to operate, thus it became popular and established the format Pre-Recorded Cassettes would be launched on.

People think Gibson 175's must be the Jazz Guitar to buy, as they are so popular and you find lots of them around. But the truth is they were significantly cheaper than the alternatives of quality and so became popular.

Sales & Marketing are paramount in the equation of developing a successful Product.

We usually deride that fact to great cost to ourselves.

It is a Parallel Universe.




The Tenor Guitar was a cheaper, smaller, very convenient Instrument for many existing Banjo Players in American Bands during a time of great Global upheaval and transition.  

All the best Manufacturers had their models, but improvements in sound and film would happily soon enable Prime Instruments to be brought to the fore, in new and powerful ways, particularly as louder, better projecting and better sounding Guitars evolved. Dynamically communicating and encouraging a profound consumer mass appeal.






P


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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2011, 07:42:20 PM »

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Geoff Emerick de Fake

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Re: tenor guitar ?
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2011, 11:10:55 AM »

I admit, to my great shame, that my initial quote of GDAE, although making some sense (to me, at least), was wrong. I have checked with George Grunh, who confirmed that the "standard" tenor tuning is CGDA. Although I have some doubts about the real durability of high strings on a 22" scale instrument. That would be equivalent to tuning a normal guitar (24-25" scale to G. That's exactly the case on a 12-string guitar, where the high string of the third course (identical to an high E-string) is tuned a third above to G. My own experience tells me that it's lacking in terms of life expectancy, in particular regarding the vivid playing style of tenor practitioners.
Could it be a case where real-life differs from academism?
Look at how Leadbelly used to tune his 12-string Stella down to C, or many rock n' roll pioneers tuned to D (or drop-D or double drop-D) and Stevie Ray's Eb tuning...
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