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Author Topic: Need professionnal ear  (Read 10226 times)

grantis

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Re: Need professionnal ear
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2010, 11:25:44 pm »

Gio wrote on Fri, 15 October 2010 21:23

grantis wrote on Fri, 15 October 2010 21:12



At this point in my young career, I've been around several high-budget records, and none of them have taken anywhere NEAR 50 hours to record/produce a song.

It really SHOULDN'T take that long.  If it does, somebody's doing a bit of 'dicking' around.


Soup to nuts? There are so many variables. Of course it depends on the project, but the hours can easily add up.

Then it depends on your definition of "dicking", and who's doing it.



I guess.  But Nick referenced an artist wanting to sing hanging from the rafters.  There's no reason to waste time on that.  I suppose that would be my definition of 'dicking around.'

Drums: 5 hours tops (including editing)
Guitars: 4 hours tops
Bass: 1 hour tops
Keys/Overdubs: 5 hours tops
Vocals: 5 hours tops
Mixing: 4 hours tops

Add 4 hours for a string session if needed, and 4 hours for a choir, if needed.

Maybe I'm fudging the numbers there, but IMO, I fudged them on the high side.  

Maybe my lack of experience in different scenarios is showing here, but I can't seem to fill 50 hours....
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Grant Craig
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: Need professionnal ear
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2010, 11:37:42 pm »

grantis wrote on Fri, 15 October 2010 20:25

Gio wrote on Fri, 15 October 2010 21:23

grantis wrote on Fri, 15 October 2010 21:12



At this point in my young career, I've been around several high-budget records, and none of them have taken anywhere NEAR 50 hours to record/produce a song.

It really SHOULDN'T take that long.  If it does, somebody's doing a bit of 'dicking' around.


Soup to nuts? There are so many variables. Of course it depends on the project, but the hours can easily add up.

Then it depends on your definition of "dicking", and who's doing it.



I guess.  But Nick referenced an artist wanting to sing hanging from the rafters.  There's no reason to waste time on that.  I suppose that would be my definition of 'dicking around.'

Drums: 5 hours tops (including editing)
Guitars: 4 hours tops
Bass: 1 hour tops
Keys/Overdubs: 5 hours tops
Vocals: 5 hours tops
Mixing: 4 hours tops

Add 4 hours for a string session if needed, and 4 hours for a choir, if needed.

Maybe I'm fudging the numbers there, but IMO, I fudged them on the high side.  

Maybe my lack of experience in different scenarios is showing here, but I can't seem to fill 50 hours....


Hi grantis,

I only reference this because not only did I have to do it once, but since John Lennon apparently tried it once, there are more people out there than you think that would like to try that, just to see what it's like.

And, yes, it totally depends on whom is doing the "dicking around"...

If it is the producer or artist, then you are going to do anything they want until it is right. It is Art at some point, after all, and some Art can only be done in the right place with the correct tools and support for the endeavor at hand. Not cheap, not fast and certainly not unsafely.

Cheers
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grantis

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Re: Need professionnal ear
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2010, 02:12:28 am »

Nick Sevilla wrote on Fri, 15 October 2010 22:37



Hi grantis,

I only reference this because not only did I have to do it once, but since John Lennon apparently tried it once, there are more people out there than you think that would like to try that, just to see what it's like.

And, yes, it totally depends on whom is doing the "dicking around"...

If it is the producer or artist, then you are going to do anything they want until it is right. It is Art at some point, after all, and some Art can only be done in the right place with the correct tools and support for the endeavor at hand. Not cheap, not fast and certainly not unsafely.

Cheers


Right on.  I guess I'll consider myself lucky I haven't worked in a place with rafters yet.  hehe.

I'm all for trying different things to get the result that is desired.  But at some point, "art" has to co-exist with a "business", and spending hours on rigging for an upside-down singer might be fine, but it should be paid for by somebody.
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Grant Craig
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archtop

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Re: Need professionnal ear
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2010, 11:57:26 am »

Just for a bit of perspective.

My session last saturday.

load in set up:                                                                       15 min.  ( I charge for)

Track bass, drums, and guitar on 3 songs:                      1 hour and 45 minutes.

Overdub lead vocal and harmonica on 3 songs:              30 minutes

mix 3 songs and burn 3 discs:                                             45 minutes


Billed 3 hours.

Out the door finished.

It sounds fine.
It sounds just like them.
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: Need professionnal ear
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2010, 12:39:53 pm »

archtop wrote on Sun, 17 October 2010 08:57

Just for a bit of perspective.

My session last saturday.

load in set up:                                                                       15 min.  ( I charge for)

Track bass, drums, and guitar on 3 songs:                      1 hour and 45 minutes.

Overdub lead vocal and harmonica on 3 songs:              30 minutes

mix 3 songs and burn 3 discs:                                             45 minutes


Billed 3 hours.

Out the door finished.

It sounds fine.
It sounds just like them.



Cool.

I get these sometimes.

But not often. Living in the LA area, there simply are too many mediocre artistes and not enough talent to go around. At least from my lowly view.

I envy Nashville cats.

And I wish the albums I work on in the future are better, and take less time to get out to market.

Let's see what happens...
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Gio

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Re: Need professionnal ear
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2010, 02:40:13 pm »

15 min. load in AND setup? I don't think that's ever happened to me in my life.

Do you have the drums permanently set up and mic'ed?
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grantis

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Re: Need professionnal ear
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2010, 06:10:08 pm »

Nick Sevilla wrote on Sun, 17 October 2010 11:39


I envy Nashville cats.


There's a fair amount of mediocrity here too.....

EDIT:
Come hang in Nashville!
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Grant Craig
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: Need professionnal ear
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2010, 06:42:45 pm »

grantis wrote on Sun, 17 October 2010 15:10

Nick Sevilla wrote on Sun, 17 October 2010 11:39


I envy Nashville cats.


There's a fair amount of mediocrity here too.....

EDIT:
Come hang in Nashville!


Thanks Grant. I'll look you up when I go record there... hopefully soon.

Cheers
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Podgorny

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Re: Need professionnal ear
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2010, 04:03:55 pm »

grantis wrote on Fri, 15 October 2010 22:25

Maybe my lack of experience in different scenarios is showing here, but I can't seem to fill 50 hours....




You must account for everything.
Meeting with the artist. Listening to their acoustic guitar worktape demos. Reworking songs, creating pre-pro demos. Listening to said demos and making notes for tracking.
Booking studio time. Booking gear rentals. Hiring musicians.
Setup, tracking. Retracking. File management. Editing. More tracking. Paperwork. Mix prep and mixing. Recalls and remixes. Alternate market mixes. More paperwork. Mastering.

Yeah, you CAN make a record in a day or two. But if you're going to do it RIGHT or piece by piece (the way most people outside of Nashville do it), it's not hard to spend 50 hours.
Oh, and you know full well it takes longer than 4 hours to mix a song, unless all those versions are gonna print themselves.
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dconstruction

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Re: Need professionnal ear
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2010, 04:34:53 pm »

Podgorny wrote on Mon, 18 October 2010 15:03

Yeah, you CAN make a record in a day or two. But if you're going to do it RIGHT or piece by piece (the way most people outside of Nashville do it), it's not hard to spend 50 hours.


I'll let this statement stand as a statement of fact, but request an amendment.  Or a corollary.  

In the local markets, where bands have no management, no money, no support and little to no experience, doing it "RIGHT" often means doing it in a day or two.

L
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Podgorny

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Re: Need professionnal ear
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2010, 04:51:28 pm »

By "Right" I'm referring to big budget records of yesteryear.
Those involved LOTS of planning, LOTS of rehearsal, and many hours choosing the right part and sound, and then innumerable takes until everything started clicking.

Guerilla record-making is an art in and of itself.  But it is a different beast from the method that has emerged over the last forty-odd years, and not something we should necessarily strive for.

And I know that this is J Hall's "Indie Rock" forum, but I believe it was Grant that mentioned adding strings, and I don't know of many two-day records that have strings and choirs on them.
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dconstruction

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Re: Need professionnal ear
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2010, 05:25:24 pm »

Both the records I mentioned earlier were tracked in under three days (non-consecutive) and have strings and horns and group vocals (I wouldn't call it a choir, to be fair).  And banjo, piano, pedal steel, percussion, harmony vocals....

But I get the point.  I would love the budget to really pre-produce a record.  To have the time to make decisions because we can, not because we must.

L
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grantis

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Re: Need professionnal ear
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2010, 06:17:37 pm »

Podgorny wrote on Mon, 18 October 2010 15:03


Oh, and you know full well it takes longer than 4 hours to mix a song, unless all those versions are gonna print themselves.


Song mix=3 hours.
15 versions of a 3.5 minute song=52.5 minutes.
I have only ever ONCE needed to print even 10 versions.  It's usually 4-6.

I do agree that the planning can take a good portion of time.

So you're saying it takes longer to make records outside of Nashville?  Why would I ever leave?!  haha.

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Grant Craig
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rankus

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Re: Need professionnal ear
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2010, 06:53:36 pm »


"Mixing : anywhere between 6 hours and 6 days" ~ Terry Mannng

This is about right for me as well... Depends on demo or album / number of tracks (sometimes approaching 100)

tuning / editing

Just did a Metal single: 15 hours just to track and edit drums.. MANY tempo and Time Signature changes.

iPhone

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Podgorny

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Re: Need professionnal ear
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2010, 07:01:04 pm »

grantis wrote on Mon, 18 October 2010 17:17


15 versions of a 3.5 minute song=52.5 minutes.



This is just dumb.

You can't multiply 3.5 times 15 and get the real amount of time anything takes.
Creating new tracks (or heaven forbid, threading new tape), making the mix changes, then transferring or exporting the mixes. Backing up, Documentation, Etc.
You must have been an EPA Estimator in a previous life.
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