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Author Topic: Brauner KHE Pop Filter + General Pop Filter Discussion  (Read 22838 times)

bob ebeling

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Brauner KHE Pop Filter + General Pop Filter Discussion
« on: July 31, 2010, 03:01:21 PM »

I recently picked up a VM1-KHE and I'm wondering if anyone has any opinions on the Brauner pop filter that is an option for it.  I'm worried that such a big bulky thing would change the tone drastically, which, as gorgeous as this mic sounds would not be welcome.  Klaus sir, I'm sure you might have a good opinion on this one.  

I'm currently using a Pauly Superscreen which I find to mess with the tone in the transparent least, but I'm enamored with the possibility of adding this giant cylindar filter based on looks.  
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Bob Ebeling
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Brauner Pop Filter opinions
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2010, 05:36:42 PM »

Bob,
Your observation is correct: The original VM1 pop screen, included in the original KHE package, is a bit on the over-protective side, with moderate impact on the high frequencies. As well-designed and executed that accessory was, we opted to delete it after about fifty mics sold.

All popper stoppers currently commercially available range on a scale from fairly transparent, though detrimental to the capsule's cleanliness (and their inability to suppress some air sounds), all the way to super-efficient in the suppression of unwanted air noise, but with too much attenuation in the highs and transients.

So, all of these products affect audio, more or less.

I found a good compromise between protection and acoustic transparency in using a wooden crochet ring, minimum of 8 inches, with two planes of single layer hose/stocking material lightly tensioned across and mated to a standard mic stand thread.
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Klaus Heyne
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Re: Brauner Pop Filter opinions
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2010, 08:15:41 AM »

Funny Klaus, as 25 years ago this is exactly how the Popper Stopper Company made theirs... In fact I still have it. However, I stopped using anything like this 15 years ago (at least with singers)... I'd rather take the time to guide them through proper mic technique (which they can use the rest of their lives!)

Thanks for the answer, Klaus.
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bob ebeling

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2010, 08:14:58 PM »

Yes, thanks a lot, Klaus.  
I'll head off to the local crochet supply this week (there actually is one down the road).  

Any particular panty hose I should keep an eye out for?  

In this pop filter craze I have tried just singing and then pulling away the filters and the results are quite dramatic, I can hear how the air around the capsule is impacted.  

In the end I just want less sibilance and less taco bell seepage from the litany of the untrained.  I find sibilance the biggest issue from filter to filter.  It seems to follow the singer, but trying 5 different pop filters before we begin real takes is just not an option in the zero attention span shrinking budget age.

10 years ago when I could have spent 3 days testing 40 pop filters if I wanted, the thought did not even cross my mind.  Funny.  
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Bob Ebeling
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2010, 03:40:35 AM »

bob ebeling wrote on Sun, 01 August 2010 17:14

Any particular panty hose I should keep an eye out for?  

Probably the kind that turns you on the most.

There are tricks to tame sibilance. Most of them employ off-axis positioning of the mouth vis a vis the capsule.

I am sure there are experienced engineers here who can chime in with their special secrets of how to tame the esses. My favorite: position the mic such that the axis extending straight out from the mouth is below that of the top of the mic (assuming it's hanging).
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Klaus Heyne
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bob ebeling

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2010, 03:12:58 PM »

This angled above position has been a favorite of mine, especially supported by some cool youtube vids of ELO, Rush, and Queen (at Musicland Studios in Munich) all using it with a C12a seemingly 2 feet away and above them.  That was one popular mic in the late 70's!

Not a pantyhose guy.  It would be interesting to try out singing between a couple naked thighs!

I can just picture the next thread...'Sheer texture control tops work the best', 'I prefer the skintone ones over the vox amp cloth pattern ones'...

This all goes to mic technique, gaps between teeth, and TALENT ON THE MIC.  Freak me.
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Bob Ebeling
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Jeff Stuart Saltzman

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2010, 03:49:19 PM »

bob ebeling wrote on Mon, 02 August 2010 12:12

This angled above position has been a favorite of mine, especially supported by some cool youtube vids of ELO, Rush, and Queen (at Musicland Studios in Munich) all using it with a C12a seemingly 2 feet away and above them.  



Hi Bob---could you point me more specifically to the clips you mentioned? I had no luck finding them...

Sorry for going off topic Klaus!

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2010, 03:50:18 PM »

If one does choose to use a pop screen, angling the screen so that the pops glance off rather than hitting the flat of the screen head on can help a lot. This technique allows for the use of a more open mesh that is acoustically more transparent. Incidentally, I don't recall ever seeing this done, but I have been doing it for some time now with good results when going without a screen is inadvisable.
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bob ebeling

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2010, 05:10:56 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYek9WozImI&feature=relat ed

There's a few shots in here of Queen at Musicland with the famous Mack engineering.  Not sure if that is actually a c12a.  Look for the extended part 1/4 thru 4/4 for the extended footage including a great walk into the studio lounge.  If you dig any ELO from 1975 to 1982, it was done at the same studio with the same engineer and tones.

Look for the Rush Moving Pictures vids of Tom Sawyer, Limelight etc.. which were all shot at Le Studio (now defunct?) where the Police and a hundred other greats made records up until the early 2000's.

When I started as head engineer at Loho in NYC in 2002 one of the first things owner engineer extroardinare Victor Luke showed me was this odd above the head/singer singing up like Lemme technique with a C12a.  'Distance equals depth' was the accompanying phrase.  It was a very 3D way to do a lead vocal but you have to build the mix around it a bit instead of smashing the vocal on top of an already smashed mix.  
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Bob Ebeling
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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2010, 05:29:09 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKpn0esJ73w

Here's Geddy doing the angled c12a no filter vibe.

You have to have two congas for your hands if your gonna try this technique though.  Tried it without the congas and it just didn't work.

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Bob Ebeling
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2010, 05:54:16 PM »

 Geddy lipsyncs on that video, and I would not use these promo shots as any indication for what mic, mic technique, or studio may have been used in the real recording.
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Klaus Heyne
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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2010, 06:01:20 PM »

bob ebeling wrote on Mon, 02 August 2010 14:10

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYek9WozImI&feature=relat ed Not sure if that is actually a c12a.

It's a 414EB (starting at 5:50 on forward)
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Eric H.

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2010, 07:06:28 PM »

It is funny because the angle I usually see in videos is inverse: capsule looking towards the ground and not the ceiling as we see in the Queen video. I should try that!
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eric harizanos

bob ebeling

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2010, 07:15:03 PM »

Get right up those huge schnozes.  Put a clip on right on the nostril.
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Bob Ebeling
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Mike Cleaver

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2010, 04:07:10 PM »

In my experience, positioning is the key and it's going to be different for every speaker/singer and every microphone.
People with vocal training are the easiest to work with.
Great performers know how to "pull" the plosives and suppress the sibilance.
The worst performers are instructed to speak or sing at a 90 degree angle to the mic capsule.
I don't like using pop filters or foam screens.
Windscreens are precisely that, for outdoor use where wind noise can be a problem.
People who spit or spray get a cheap mic that's disposable.
The other idea, put forward by others of using two mics, a placebo for the performer to sing into however they prefer and the real mic, further away, often works well, especially with a good mic with reach.
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Fletcher

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Re: Brauner Pop Filter opinions
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2010, 07:47:58 AM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Sat, 31 July 2010 17:36

I found a good compromise between protection and acoustic transparency in using a wooden crochet ring, minimum of 8 inches, with two planes of single layer hose/stocking material lightly tensioned across and mated to a standard mic stand thread.


Interestingly, I have found the least "sonic signature" from using a tighter tension and larger holder than a "crochet ring".

While it usually looks like ass, I've found that by taking a wire coat hanger, bending it out to be about square [then straighten the "coat hook" part of the hanger and gaff it to a mic stand] with a tightly stretched "knee high" stocking affects the sound less than any other "spit shield" I have ever encountered.

As you have the two layers [one on each side of the wire] it does a great job of stopping flying spit.  By tensioning the hose rather tightly it also helps a bit in stopping plosives [though its not the "be all / end all" my any stretch of the imagination].

Guess its one of those "Your Mileage May Vary" things.
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bob ebeling

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2010, 01:16:11 PM »

Fletcher, I once had something similar rigged up (not so square) and my client showed up the next day with a gift for me-- a Shure Pop Stopper.
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Bob Ebeling
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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2010, 03:30:40 PM »

I hope you deleted him.
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piedpiper

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Re: Brauner Pop Filter opinions
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2010, 04:00:14 PM »

Fletcher wrote on Wed, 04 August 2010 06:47

By tensioning the hose rather tightly it also helps a bit in stopping plosives [though its not the "be all / end all" my any stretch of the imagination].


You mean, "by any stretch of the stocking"?
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Tim Britton

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bob ebeling

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2010, 04:59:03 PM »

I went to Ben Franklin craftstore today to buy the knitting rings.  Got a 4",6", 8", and a 6x9"! all for $7.  Bought a 12 pack of black knee highs at K-mart -$2.99.  Also at the Ben F I bought a yard and a half of black tull (pronounced tool)--a wedding dress fabric, $1.70.  Looks real cool.  

An hour later I have assembled the 4 pop filters for the grand total of what..$12 plus 2 hours and gas.  

Now the big mystery.  How do I mount these things?  I'm thinking of trying to find some of the ultra useful clamp style mic-clips with screw tighten downs.  Those things are impossible to find and probably the most useful utilitarian mic clip ever made.  I've trusted the big dogs hanging upside down with those but damn if I have none in my tackle boxes.

I'll see how they stack up against the Pauly.  JJ's shootout was pretty good but I have to think different voices are going to be a factor.  
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Bob Ebeling
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2010, 05:25:50 PM »

bob ebeling wrote on Wed, 04 August 2010 13:59

 How do I mount these things?  I'm thinking of trying to find some of the ultra useful clamp style mic-clips with screw tighten downs.  


Bingo! I used a Radio Shack mic clip found at a Goodwill store. It has the proper female threading for mic stands. I then connected it to the two loops at the bottom of the crochet ring. Done.
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bob ebeling

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2010, 05:40:02 PM »

I just figured this out; the mass market pop filters are basically plastic crochet rings, so the parts are all the same.   I simply took off the supplied filter from a Shure type one on a gooseneck and installed the newly created crochet ring filter.  The parts are the same.

For the other 8" ring I found enough parts in the magic toolboxes - an xy clip, etc. to make it work.  I will say that the 8" ring looks really cool.  That's twice the usual size and for use on the CS-1, which requires some backing up, that will be perfect.  This 8" one recieved four plys of the tull fabric.  Testing myself it seemes transparent and stops the pops.  I also spit tested it and nothing went through.  Easy to clean also.

Thank you Klaus~!
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Bob Ebeling
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bob ebeling

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2010, 05:57:02 PM »

One other fact; you can replace the hosiery on these crochet rings in about 30 seconds.  Fresh filters for everyone!index.php/fa/15190/0/
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Bob Ebeling
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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2010, 10:20:51 AM »

bob ebeling wrote on Wed, 04 August 2010 16:40

 This 8" one recieved four plys of the tull fabric.


Was two plys not enough?
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bob ebeling

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2010, 10:30:42 AM »

The tull is pretty thin and two wasn't stopping the pop, let the alone the fear of spit.  It's in an x pattern so when I folded the double over again, the x's all started overlapping nicely.  You can't slip it over the ring like hosiery because it's not elastic.  So it ended up being 4 plys on one side of the ring, much the way the crocheters use the rings.  

If you wanted to get creative, they had about 40 colors of that tull.  Some crazy purples, etc..

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Bob Ebeling
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bob ebeling

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2010, 10:34:34 AM »

index.php/fa/15192/0/

Hard to photograph....
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Bob Ebeling
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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2010, 02:23:55 PM »

I've made a few of these myself, pretty much as Klaus describes.
I found that tilting the filter off of perpendicular with respect to the vocalist/capsule axis, to deflect some of the air, does seem to help.

Fletcher's idea of a thinner ring material and somewhat random shape makes sense, as any depth to the circular ring will theoretically create some wee bit of reflection and also a bit of cavity resonance. Also the ring causes some wee bit of diffraction (good reason to make the filter a large diameter relative to the vocalist/capsule distance).

My attempted solution to these issues was to cut a strip of wool felt about 1/2" thick and the same width as the depth of the ring, and glue this around the inside of the ring to soften the hard edge before stretching the stocking over it. Unfortunately the only pic I have is at the wrong angle to show the felt (it's also smaller than Klaus recommends, and yeah, it's not tilted like I said I do). But you can see some ripple to the stocking around the edge where it touches the felt inside.

I found the result pretty subtle, but it's certainly easy to do and I'd be interested to hear if anyone else tried it and hears a difference.
index.php/fa/15211/0/
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bob ebeling

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2010, 07:36:06 PM »

Hi Dan,

I will try some felt or similar material out this week.  I'm believing now that it is the depth of the circular ring that is causing the high end issues with most filters.  I'm also going to experiment more with the 6x9 ring.
 
Today I recorded an aggresive R&B tenor male and we messed with three different filters for the first 10 minutes.  My 8" Tull covered ring seemed bright on this guy, the picture shows the winner.  The Pauly.  Go figure-- holes all around the ring.  It was simply the most transparent.  The close second was my double nylon layered 4" crochet ring, pictured behind.  I wonder if I were able to drill holes all around the circumfrence...?  But felt is the next try.

Dan, give me your take on the Brauner filter.  I'm tempted on looks alone, and massive seeming protection, but do you find a large impact or essy escalation?

index.php/fa/15212/0/
   
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Bob Ebeling
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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter Opinions and Options
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2010, 02:52:47 PM »

Please tell more about the 'Pauly. I am unaware of it. Is that what is pictured?

I am fowling this thread with interest, as I use a Manley Gold Ref.  It was designed to allow the user to devise his/her own screen / filter as needed. I also have had less than great results with standard popper stopper type filters. Usually, I get best results with a regular wind sock stretched over the head grill. Here, my fear is the crumble from these (well documented here by K.H.) will eventually contaminate the capsule.

I am now thinking I want to put silk, a la RCA 77, under the foam sock in order to protect the capsule from the crumbs of the foam.
 I worked in a studio that put Sonex-type material inside the popper stopper around the edge. They claimed it cut reflection from the rim. I dismissed this as over- thinking the problem. But I am thinking there must be some validity to this and will try it.
 The Gold ref. often sits in its box, because I haven't found a solution that works for enough singers whom I encounter. (...) I might get a lot more use out of this mic, if I had a better filter option.
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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter + General Pop Filter Discussion
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2010, 04:50:29 PM »

The Pauly is indeed pictured and sold in the US by Las Vegas Pro Audio.  There are other companies now making high end filters.    

One is called the Blastfilter I believe.  Both the Blast and the Pauly are over $200.  I had to try making some filters for comparison.  For me the Pauly works, or stays out of the way.  It is better than my four utilitarian attempts, thus far.    

The lining of the inner rim with some high/mid absorbing material seems to be the next step.  The holes used in the Pauly is the better solution.  One of the crochet rings I bought is a 6x9 and I think that could be interesting, but I haven't tried it yet, and then again it might need lined rims anyway.  

If you've got a beautiful mic that is not being used out of fear, just dive into the pop filter mania and get yourself over it.  For me, the joy of engineering is the joy of using great tools to get the little hairs standing on end.


   
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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter + General Pop Filter Discussion
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2010, 09:46:13 PM »

Anyone have any idea what this screen may be?
index.php/fa/15217/0/
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Mike Cleaver

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter + General Pop Filter Discussion
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2010, 09:56:44 PM »

That looks similar to the screens Sennheiser and AKG used to make for their mics.
The Sennheiser one for the MD421 was round on the outside with the tv shaped opening to fit over the mic.
AKG used to make one similar to what's in the picture which also came with a similar screen that fit over the mic body.
They were plastic or fiberglass in construction with several layers of screening material inside.
This was in the '60's and 70's.
I have not seen one since then.index.php/fa/15218/0/
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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter + General Pop Filter Discussion
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2010, 01:04:17 AM »

I own one of these original 1960's wind screens. They look bulky and impervious to sound, but are surprisingly transparent in actual use. Still no match for a good popper stopper.

As to the Pauly: As it was distributed by the same company as the KHE I was asked to test it.  At the time, I did not like it as much as my primitive home-made crochet job. Despite flange holes, there was noticeable comb filtering which I attributed to the mesh material and its positioning.
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Jim Williams

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter + General Pop Filter Discussion
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2010, 11:49:09 AM »

For many years before the "We Are The World" panty hose thing came about I would use 2 mics. One was the dummy right out in front of the talent, the other was the real mic off at a slight angle to avoid direct breath pops.

That works very well without any filtration effects from air stoppers. Once a mic is out 6 inches it makes little tonal difference if it's slightly off axis from the direct air flow.
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Eric H.

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter + General Pop Filter Discussion
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2010, 04:30:30 PM »

Does anyone know about this mic protection? It is a pretty big protection for indoor recording, isn't it?
What is your guess what the mic is?index.php/fa/15227/0/
It is a Tony Williams shot on a Van Gelder session, by the way.
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eric harizanos

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter + General Pop Filter Discussion
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2010, 04:35:22 PM »

I also see this one a lot on these session pics:index.php/fa/15228/0/

Thanks for your enlightenment
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eric harizanos

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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter + General Pop Filter Discussion
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2010, 06:43:20 AM »

Wow, so noone knows about these?
Must be pretty rare?
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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter + General Pop Filter Discussion
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2010, 09:00:01 AM »

I may be wrong, but I think Rudy Van Gelder used Schoeps M221b sdc mics... so it may be them with a windscreen?

barks
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Re: Brauner KHE Pop Filter + General Pop Filter Discussion
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2010, 09:48:04 AM »

I'm back to the home made crochet job with two knee highs around it.  

Side note on 221b's.  LOVE those mics.  They have reach and force.  IF I think of Tony Williams drum sound I can picture 221b's.  I could use them 6 feet away and it would sound like a close mic with a throaty punch to it still.  The connectors made our pair unbearable and impossible to use eventually.
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Bob Ebeling
bobebeling.bandcamp.com
Virginia
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