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Author Topic: U87 Capsule cleaning video  (Read 28824 times)

ratite

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U87 Capsule cleaning video
« on: May 12, 2010, 11:22:42 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvHeabo1bHc

Any thoughts on this about his technique/approach?

Also found this one.What is it with Australians and cleaning mics?
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhZmljRw18I&feature=relat ed
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Richard Horner
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compasspnt

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2010, 01:21:58 AM »

Yikes!

Not sure which of those videos scares me the most.

By the way, if you want to learn to hook up a U87, there's a video for that too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkvjVHrAIkg&NR=1
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2010, 01:27:07 AM »

In the cleaning video: did you notice that the capsule was mounted backwards on the mount?
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compasspnt

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2010, 08:13:49 AM »

I like the heartwarming applause.
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Martin Kantola

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2010, 11:16:35 AM »

Wow, those are serious wrinkles, looks like a Chinese capsule...

Martin
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J.J. Blair

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2010, 12:48:26 PM »

The wrinkles appear after he brushes the thing.  He destroyed the capsule tension.
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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2010, 01:08:20 PM »

Thank you for sharing... pink-slipper....
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ratite

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2010, 01:08:26 PM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Fri, 14 May 2010 01:48

The wrinkles appear after he brushes the thing.  He destroyed the capsule tension.


That's what impressed me about the video.This man drowns and destroys capsules for a living and then puts videos of it on youtube!Truly impressive.
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Richard Horner
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arconaut

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2010, 01:32:02 PM »



I'm not defending this, but you can see some wrinkles in the diaphragm before he cleans it, around the 2:50 mark.

I guess the second guy doesn't know about "Microphome."
http://www.microphome.com/  Rolling Eyes
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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2010, 02:59:30 PM »

The wrinkles at 2:50 are actually on the pad switch/low rolloff switch side... if you look carefully, you can see them again at 7:48-7:53.  
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Mike Cleaver

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2010, 04:00:51 PM »

Man, there are some things smart people never do, such as cut their own hair or perform brain surgery on themselves.
Some jobs are best left to professionals.
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Martin Kantola

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2010, 05:16:45 PM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 20:28

1. The capsule is not a Chinese knock-off, but a genuine K870 made in 2006.


Only seen Chinese capsules with wrinkles like that, wasn't saying it IS one. Maybe your eyes (or screen resolution) are better than mine but it sure looks like wrinkles both before and after the work... (at about 5:31 you can see the diaphragm ripple when he touches it)

Martin
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2010, 05:39:06 PM »

Martin Kantola wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 14:16

(...) Maybe your eyes (or screen resolution) are better than mine but it sure looks like wrinkles both before and after the work... (at about 5:31 you can see the diaphragm ripple when he touches it)



Martin, you are right. I did not look at the video carefully at first.

I have removed my erroneous statement, and now speculate further:

Quote:

I'm not defending this, but you can see some wrinkles in the diaphragm before he cleans it, around the 2:50 mark.


I too believe he did not create the wrinkles just by cleaning with his brush (which is pretty hard to do, even with a coarser brush than he used) but the substantial loss of tention was probably created when someone loosened the diaphragm screws, which caused an instant collapse of pre-tension, as diaphragms on Neumann LD capsules are not glued to the diaphragm rings.

Tension is irreversibly lost on these capsules as soon as more than a few mounting screws are loosened.
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MDM,

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2010, 07:46:51 PM »

two personal thoughts regarding this video:

first, I had to deal with a few of those 'black-period' u-87's in Rome and one really curious thing about them (to me) was that sometimes the mics would 'lose it' and become dull and unfocused, even if they had very low hours, like the one my musician friend had which was used for a few demos.

often the back side was duller than the front (I've mentioned this before.. I don't know if it was pure chance or maybe something to do with sending the duds to Italy.. I AM JUST GUESSING).

if the paint on the screws is still intact, this might mean that there MAY have been a tendency for SOME capsules to lose the grip, for some reason..

I wonder if those rings could shrink or deform or change in some way over the years.


Second, the brush I saw mentioned by Neumann as suitable for capsule cleaning with demineralized water I seem to remember was of the camel-hair variety.
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2010, 09:04:27 PM »

In almost thirty years of looking at original Neumann capsules on a regular basis I have not seen a single diaphragm side ever having lost most or all of its tension, as seen on the video, without external manipulation or adverse environmental influences.

Neumann has got that part  of capsule making down like no other company.

I am also not sure what you mean with "black-period U87s". The mic in the video is a late model U87Ai, made either in 2006 or early 2007. Can you elaborate?

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ratite

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2010, 10:18:17 PM »

MDM, wrote on Fri, 14 May 2010 08:46


Second, the brush I saw mentioned by Neumann as suitable for capsule cleaning with demineralized water I seem to remember was of the camel-hair variety.


That may be true for Neumann however David Josephson in his cleaning notes suggests a steam dampened sable brush for light dust then long fibered cotton for distilled water or isopropyl.I think it's somewhere on the forum but I saved it for reference:

Quote:

Microphone diaphragms aren't so fragile(1). The big problem with this
issue is that most people don't know what's inside the microphone,
past the diaphragm, are terrified that they'll damage something, and
as a result get all spooky and do more damage than they otherwise
would. So they get shaky hands and oops, there goes the q-tip through
the diaphragm.

(1) Note, some early Neumann and AKG diaphragms were made of PVC rather
than PET and are subject to embrittlement due to loss of plasticizer
compounds. These diaphragms *are* fragile.

Microphones are cleaned all the time (when, and only when needed) _by
people who know what they are doing_ and can afford to make mistakes.
You have to allow yourself the mindset that if you break it, you can
afford to fix or replace it. Otherwise, leave it alone. The gap between
the diaphragm and the backplate varies from 10 microns to about 50
microns (that's 2/1000 of an inch maximum). Any pressure you put on
the diaphragm with any device like cotton, or a swab, will crash it into
the backplate. Get over it. So will a door slam, or a sharp snare drum
hit. If this causes damage, the diaphragm is already deteriorated to
the point where it can't be depended on for studio service. Make no
assumptions about the diaphragm unless you're able to check them yourself.
There is a lot of junk out there, particularly now that old studio mics
that were once tossed in a pile are worth $5000 and up. I have seen a
lot of mics that sellers claimed were "factory original" that were in
fact rather recently re-made (and the whole gamut from fraudulent junk
to factory-equal-or-better).

The accumulation of spittle and smoke on a large-diaphragm vocal mic
is often at least as heavy as the diaphragm itself. This causes readily
audible changes in response, and never (in my experience) for the better.
That it doesn't make it sound like an entirely different microphone is
proof that diaphragm mass isn't everything (in fact, the main controlling
component is the air cushion behind the diaphragm, but that's a topic
for another rant.) You need to remove this if the mic is going to sound
right. You also need to be sure that all external surfaces that may have
accumulated conductive deposits are clean so that you don't get fizzy
noises whenever the weather is damp. Particularly troublesome in this
regard are the Neumann and other mics that have a conductive spot in
the middle of the diaphragm, with an un-metallized band between it and the
diaphragm support ring. A thin film of spit, atmospheric crud, smoke, etc.
condenses on this ring-shaped band of clear plastic, and it doesn't
take much to bridge the gap. This deposit is often hydrophilic -- when
dry the mic works fine, but when breathed on, the moisture from your
breath combines with the salts in the deposit to form a conductive bridge.

Before you begin, scrub your hands absolutely clean with some harsh,
oil-removing soap. The object of the exercise is to avoid leaving
conductive or hydrophilic (water-attracting) deposits on the insulators.

My solvents of choice are isopropyl alcohol and distilled water. For really
awful cases, xylene is the backup solvent. I use a wooden-handled cotton
swab with an extra layer, about 1/2" thick, of long fiber cotton (rolled
cotton from the drugstore) wound on over the tip. Use a #2 or so sable
artists' watercolor brush, yes, the $20 kind, to remove the dust you can
brush off. Getting the brush a little damp by breathing on it (or better,
putting it in the steam from a tea-kettle so you don't make the deposits
worse) will make more dust stick to it. Almost all remaining deposits can
be removed with just water. Take your time, and keep the cotton damp but
not dripping so you have some control. When you think you have most of
the junk off, STOP.  All solvents including the distilled water should be
kept in tightly closed bottles; pour out what you need into a dish and
throw it out when you're done. If the water isn't getting all the crud,
add a little alcohol (this is 91 or 99% isopropyl alcohol, with no other
chemicals in it, preferably lab technical grade at least but USP is good
enough if at least 91%) to the water, about 50% is usually enough. You
use long fiber cotton so you can see all the fibers you left behind, and
remove them before you reassemble the mic. On Neumann and other large
diaphragm mics with the clear band of plastic diaphragm between the
metallized center spot and the support ring, be particularly careful that
this band gets clearn.

Often, you'll see some particle caught between the diaphragm and the
backplate making a sort of "tent." You have to make a decision -- are
you going to tear the whole capsule apart, or send it to a good mic lab,
or buy a new one.  Most of the screwed-together mic capsules can be taken
apart and put back together with no special tools except screwdrivers
that really fit the screws, and pin wrenches that fit the threaded rings.
Make a drawing of how it came apart, it has to go back together the same
way. Note however that some of these have the diaphragm tension held
constant only by the pressure of the ring -- no glue (these cannot be
disassembled safely unless you have a means to re-tension the diaphragm).
Measure the capacitances between each terminal and every other
terminal (for instance, a CK12 capsule has two diaphragms and two
backplates, that's four capacitances to measure) and confirm when you
put it back together than you're within a few percent of where you
started.

Modern diaphragms are made of mylar (PET, polyethylene terephthalate)
or PC (polycarbonate) and don't deteriorate much. However the metallization
may or may not be adhered well to the plastic. If you see pieces of it
coming off, or getting thin, STOP. A little missing gold won't hurt,
but if you lose some more it's not a microphone anymore. Metal diaphragm
mics use aluminum, nickel, cobalt alloys, stainless steel or titanium, all
of which can react with junk in the air to form corrosion products, which
are often conductive. If you see pinholes or cracks in the diaphragm, STOP,
use it as is if you can, otherwise get a new one.

Disclaimer and notice: Obviously these are delicate devices easily damaged
by people who don't know what they are doing. I'm not responsible if you
use this information and damage your (or someone else's) microphone. Only
you can make the determination whether you're qualified to attempt such
procedures as I have described here. Also, I don't do microphone repairs or
"upgrades" -- there are several people in the US and Europe who do, you're
on your own in selecting one.

Be patient, pay attention, take your time...

Josephson Engineering


My initial choice was to remove these instructions, because capsule cleaning is so much more involved, and the chances of irreparable damage to a diaphragm are high if one were to follow them.
Instead, I left the narrative up here, with a big fat warning: from my experience, even if you follow David's instructions carefully, you will in many cases make things worse than if you would have employed a professional for the job. See also David's update below, in message #483199 K.H.
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Richard Horner
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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2010, 10:41:29 PM »

Two things concern me.

First, he says "I wanted this to be like a genuine service situation ... a microphone comes on the desk and here it is ... I haven't heard or seen this microphone before" and he starts going at it like it's some sort of routine tune-up.

Second, this is a school. Thanks to the multiplicative effect of education, there is now a whole bunch of people I want to keep far away from microphones, not just him. He should be showing them how to use them in a way that does not dirty up the capsules so badly.

If he would only have bothered to have listened to it before and after his efforts he might have a better idea of what the problem is (if there even was one) and how his repair was working out for him. I conjecture that the applause would not be so enthusiastic if he had done so.
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Phil Mayor

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2010, 06:34:56 AM »

I tried the above method on some junked chinese mic capsules just to experiment. Even with the most gentle approach I could come up with the gold came straight off..
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radiovinheta

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2010, 01:56:23 PM »

I can't believe what the "expert" did it in the capsule. This video can only be a joke (bad taste)
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David Bock

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2010, 02:48:45 PM »

he didn't test it before OR after.

Eric H.

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2010, 05:47:38 PM »

watching a capsule destruction. Note all the wrinkles on the surface. It is frightening.
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Bill_Urick

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2010, 06:25:34 PM »

Now, someone post a video showing how it should be done.

Cool
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Martin Kantola

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2010, 06:33:19 PM »

Wow, he removed my comment on the video!

Martin
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Mike Cleaver

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2010, 07:00:18 PM »

I'm not really an expert on anything.
I just play one on internet formums and on YouTube and Facebook.
The problem is, any idiot can post anything anywhere without having it vetted and approved by one who is an expert.
Wikipedia is the obvious example.
Just because it's on Al Gore's Internets doesn't make it the truth.
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DavidSpearritt

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2010, 07:01:06 PM »

Quote:

What is it with Australians and cleaning mics?


I can think of a few things.

1. Enormous distance and isolation from the rest of the world.
2. Low population, lots of big fish in little ponds.
3. No decent service centres or trained technicians (market too small)
4. Have to make do and make mistakes due to 1 and 3 above.

But that's no excuse to YouTube the mistakes.

Bill_Urick wrote on Sat, 15 May 2010 08:25

Now, someone post a video showing how it should be done.

Cool


A sensible idea, to be sure.

J.J. Blair

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2010, 07:32:33 PM »

Martin, he removed mine, too!
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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2010, 09:36:16 PM »

I'm POSITIVE he should remove the video!
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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2010, 08:26:59 AM »

Yes we may be far away, but Gunter Wagner lives here.  I send my Neumann's to Wagner in Sydney. His work has been stellar.
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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2010, 11:29:40 AM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 20:04

In almost thirty years of looking at original Neumann capsules on a regular basis I have not seen a single diaphragm side ever having lost most or all of its tension, as seen on the video, without external manipulation or adverse environmental influences.

Neumann has got that part  of capsule making down like no other company.

I am also not sure what you mean with "black-period U87s". The mic in the video is a late model U87Ai, made either in 2006 or early 2007. Can you elaborate?




yes, early 90's u87's

I've never seen such a thing (very loose membrane) on a mic either, but I still don't get why those neumann capsules I heard seemed to lack bass and clarity even when unused, while buying them new or changing capsules seemed to solve the problem, especially when compared to the nice capsules in the older neumanns, as I've mentioned before... that's just a doubt in my mind I've had for years

I wonder what could cause a skin to ripple like that? seems like a difficult thing to accomplish unless as you pointed-out someone loosened the screws.
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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2010, 01:35:08 PM »

The ripple is a no brainer.  This guy reminds me of my brother. My brother took apart everything I held precious to see how it worked. Unfortunately for me he never gained the skills to put those things back together again… at least not to a working state. Gee... I  still think he is a chump...  30 years later... hold on, I gotta go call my therapist.

I think the teacher took apart the capsule tension screws  at a different time "to see how it works", screwed the mic up and thus allowed him to do a demonstration of "How to clean a capsule" with no negative consequences..  It was already toasted, there appears to be no seal wax/glue on the screws.
index.php/fa/14815/0/
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Martin Kantola

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2010, 05:25:42 PM »

"A fantastic demonstration of cleaning a Neumann U87 with Glen Phimister at the Australian Institute of Music. Another great example of the industry practitioners at AIM."

Maybe someone should tell them it's fantastic but not as intended?

Martin
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Mark Lemaire

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2010, 02:45:11 AM »

Dear folks-

If this guy is a teacher, by god he must know what he's doing! I just cleaned my U67s and M269 pair's dusty capsules this way. Just for good measure I also cleaned my KM84 capsules too. Now none of them sound so good anymore, and one of them doesn't pass signal at all...  What gives?

Yes, I did use a good camel's hair brush. Maybe I shouldn't have dried them with that heat gun?
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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2010, 12:46:30 PM »

I know nothing about cleaning microphones, except that I don't want to do it myself, and the names and phone numbers of a couple of guys that I would trust.   Showing students how to keep a mic clean and safe is a much more important lesson than teaching them how to clean them.  I've been engineering for 25 years and I've cleaned one microphone capsule.  I had Tony Merrill do it last year to my old EB.

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2010, 01:41:54 PM »

Mark Lemaire wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 02:45

Maybe I shouldn't have dried them with that heat gun?


My dear friend, you must always use a hairdryer on the low/cool setting from 12 inches away or more, and only with all of the windows closed! Duh!
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Tapani Rauha

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2010, 03:27:26 PM »

Mike Cleaver wrote on Sat, 15 May 2010 04:36

I'm POSITIVE he should remove the video!


Now:

"removed by user"

Did anyone download the video?
Anyone know anything about the Australian Institute of Music?
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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2010, 07:43:21 PM »

As I noted in 1995, perhaps it would be better just to let this discussion expire. But no, the internet never forgets.

It is absolutely correct as Klaus points out that "in many cases you will make matters worse..."

Also, in fifteen years no one seems to have noticed the little snag that I included in that posting. Does anyone catch it now? Hint: no one has such means...
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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2010, 07:29:22 AM »

djosephson wrote on Sat, 22 May 2010 00:43


Also, in fifteen years no one seems to have noticed the little snag that I included in that posting. Does anyone catch it now? Hint: no one has such means...

This?
Note however that some of these have the diaphragm tension held constant only by the pressure of the ring -- no glue (these cannot be disassembled safely unless you have a means to re-tension the diaphragm).
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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2010, 10:14:27 PM »

Tapani Rauha wrote on Sat, 22 May 2010 05:27

Mike Cleaver wrote on Sat, 15 May 2010 04:36

I'm POSITIVE he should remove the video!


Now:

"removed by user"

Did anyone download the video?
Anyone know anything about the Australian Institute of Music?



I think AIM are reasonably well respected as far as audio schools go. Some time ago they took over Q studios (the former Rhinoceros studios which, IIRC, was originally owned by INXS) & kept it going for some time until developers eyed the building for apartments, at which time they moved the studio 'in house': http://www.aim.edu.au/facilities/qstudios/default.asp

I didn't see the video, but Glen is also reasonably well respected as a successful engineer & producer, & as well as teaching he services mics (known for re-ribboning) & hires out a selection of modern & vintage outboard & microphones. I've hired gear from him & had one mic re-ribboned by him (Beyer M360). Never heard a bad thing about him until mention of this video.

Cheers,
Glenn
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jwhynot: "There's a difference between thinking or acting dogmatically and drawing from experience."


Glenn Santry
http://www.myspace.com/glennsantry

Mike Cleaver

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Re: U87 Capsule cleaning video
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2010, 12:06:15 AM »

As has been proven by many hobbyists, experimenters and old time radio engineers, re-ribboning is not exactly rocket science and the material is pretty easy to come by.
If you ruin a ribbon installing it, it's pretty easy and inexpensive to either make or have made a replacement.
He was playing with a thousand dollar microphone capsule (if it was a Neumann.)
If it was a Chinese knockoff, well, that's a different story.
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