R/E/P Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?  (Read 13904 times)

robft

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« on: May 08, 2010, 08:39:10 PM »

I've got a great old original C12 that I love. The person who had it previously got a bit overzealous and cleaned the capsule and rubbed gold off the diaphram from what it looks like. Now, the sound it started to go and I'm wondering if anyone still resputters gold onto an original diaphram?

I know Stephen Paul Audio used to sputter their own, and they worked on my U47 years ago. Are they still in business? I know Stephen Paul passed away unfortunately, but someone else wsa keeing it going several years ago.

Otherwise, does anyone else resputter? I want to keep EVERYTHING original in this C12, so it would be great to have the diaphram resputtered and not have to have it replaced. Otherwise, do people replace the diaphram while keeping the rest of the capsule original? I don't want to lose any of the character of the sound.
Logged

Klaus Heyne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3154
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2010, 08:46:11 PM »

You WILL lose the original sound of the capsule (and therefore, by extension, the mic) with any manipulation on the capsule components. There is no way around that. You may obtain from someone an original, complete diaphragm w/mounting ring. But chances are slim that the component you need to replace will be from the same series (and made to the same specs and tolerance) as the one that was in there. AKG had dozens of revisions and its stray from norm was e(norm)ous!

So, the first thing I would suggest is an attitude adjustment re: "keeping EVERYTHING original".

The most reasonable fix for your situation I can think of would not be a newly made, and sputtered, diaphragm (no one will sputter an existing diaphragm anyway) but to search for an original CK12 capsule with at least one good diaphragm, preferably from the same era and building spec as yours.

Logged
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com

compasspnt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16266
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2010, 09:33:26 PM »

How is the other side?
Logged

seedyunderbelly.com

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2465
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2010, 03:03:28 AM »

are you sure it needs anything?  sometimes they sound fine even with some gold rubbed off...

J.J. Blair

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12809
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2010, 01:27:49 PM »

From what I understand, you can't simply reapply the gold to a diaphragm which has lost its gold.  I was hoping for a similar solution for one of my Sony capsules, and my understanding is that with all the contaminants on the surface of a used capsule, the gold will simply not adhere to it.  
Logged
studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Dale Ulan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 120
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2010, 10:01:16 PM »

The contaminants don't help much, and you'd have a very rough surface unless you removed all of the original gold (and contaminants). But even in cleaning the substrate (mylar or styroflex or PVC or glass), you will leave other contaminants on there, and if there's anywhere where contaminants are not wanted, it's in gold coating of those plastics. I have dozens of diaphragms with little fingerprints or other blemishes that were not visible when I put them in the chamber, but they sure make themselves visible when you hit the thing with gold.

Wait... there are even more complications. You would get deformation of the diaphragm while removing that original gold. The sputtering/deposition process also heats the mylar up substantially - enough that you see it deform slightly, and if you have a diaphragm ring on there already, the temperatures won't be even across it which would cause uneven tension and a sound that's pretty bad. Some capsule designs are pretty forgiving of that but the CK12 isn't one of them. You can't remove the diaphragm from the ring because you can't tension it without extra material that used to be there - it used to be clamped/glued/pressed into the tensioning jig/ring.
Logged
Dale Ulan
10000 Cows Recording Studio
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Fletcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3016
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2010, 09:17:12 AM »

There are more than a couple companies that can re-skin original CK-12 capsules rather competently, I would think that would be the most effective avenue for exploration.
Logged
CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch.  
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

seedyunderbelly.com

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2465
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2010, 11:27:50 AM »

And be sure that you even need to do anything sometimes they look bad sound fine...

How Does it sound to you?

Oliver Archut

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1125
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2010, 01:25:35 PM »

There are more than a couple companies that can re-skin original CK-12 capsules rather competently


Hello Fletcher,

I do not know your definition of competently, but having evaluated samples of all companies and individuals that offer reskining, there is none of them that is identical to a pristine version of a great sounding AKG CK12.

I might agree with you that there are a lot of after market vendors/skinners that will produce nice sounding capsules, but none that I would call identical.

As you know I Do make microphones.

Also the great sounding AKG made CK12 capsule did not utilize gold evaporation, the rather thick gold film was deposit using a chemical reduction process.  
Later AKG CK12 used the gold evaporation method, but those ones do not fall in the domain of great sounding.

Best regards,
Logged
Oliver Archut
www.tab-funkenwerk.com

We are so advanced, that we can develop technology that can determine how much damage the earth has taken from the development of that technology.

Marik

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 215
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2010, 03:35:57 PM »

Oliver Archut wrote on Wed, 12 May 2010 18:25



I might agree with you that there are a lot of after market vendors that will produce nice sounding capsules, but none that I would call identical.




Oliver,

I am not sure what can be called identical in this case, as even out of factory it is quite hard to find two species one could call "identical". That was especially true for the earlier brass ring capsules, which were all over the map.

Best,
Logged
Mark Fouxman
Samar Audio & Microphone Design
www.samaraudiodesign.com

Oliver Archut

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1125
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2010, 04:06:06 PM »

Hello Marik,

you are right and there were several discussion about the widespread sound qualities of an AKG CK12.

Let me clarify, a pristine good working example of what AKG was capable of manufacturing. The ones that have the special something.

Best regards,
Logged
Oliver Archut
www.tab-funkenwerk.com

We are so advanced, that we can develop technology that can determine how much damage the earth has taken from the development of that technology.

Klaus Heyne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3154
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2010, 05:10:30 PM »

...and that special something is all I ask for.

Knowing the tremendous varieties of original CK12 capsules, they STILL all had that special something, unless the capsule was obviously deficient, or damaged.

Let's not use that wide spread of manufacturing tolerance in some of the desirable vintage products as an excuse to not deliver in the same class of magic when vendors are trying to reproduce these products.
It's an excuse that no one who has heard ample samples of originals will buy.

If there are ten different flavors of magic in an original CK12, I am quite alright in hearing an eleventh flavor of that magic in a capsule reproduction. I am not alright if that eleventh flavor is in a different, lower, league of excitement or emotional attractiveness, or otherwise deficient in the areas that make us say Ahhh!

I wish all parties the best, and will always make time to listen and test new capsule offerings.
Logged
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com

miics

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 69
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2010, 09:06:37 PM »

Oliver Archut wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 03:25

There are more than a couple companies that can re-skin original CK-12 capsules rather competently
(...) having evaluated samples of all companies and individuals that offer reskining, there is none of them that is identical to a pristine version of a great sounding AKG CK12.


You Haven't ried mine yet, so definitely not all.

cheers

antoniosolo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 81
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2010, 09:12:40 PM »

Well Ben, here is your opportunity.  You poked your head in and spoke up, now send Klaus a capsule. I ask in the most respectful tone and circumstance, so that we can partake of your magical  offerings.  Hope all is well Ben.  Very Happy
Logged
I'm listening....

Klaus Heyne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3154
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2010, 09:43:47 PM »

Ben just sent me two of his K47-style capsules (I am currently assembling a test battery of KK47s to make quick changes possible, for comparison.)

So be easy on him!
Logged
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com

mikeman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2010, 09:57:18 PM »

Oliver Archut wrote on Wed, 12 May 2010 12:25

Later AKG CK12 used the gold evaporation method, but those ones do not fall in the domain of great sounding.



Oliver,
Could you elaborate on when AKG began installing the later CK12's employing the gold evaporation method? And in which models?

Thank you,
Mike Longhurst
Logged
Mike Longhurst

robft

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2010, 01:38:35 AM »

I would assume that this C-12 is of the "reduction" gold capsule type as it is one of the earlier ones- it has the pattern selector knob that looks like one on a Lionel train transformer- huge.

When I first bought the mic, perhaps 20 years ago, it sounded great, but occasionally the capsule would cut out if held sideways (as opposed to hanging straight down) and it received a little vibration. I noticed when looking at the capsule, you could see gold that was rubbed off the capsule.

But it sounded so good as it was, I didn't want to do anything about it. Then one day, I went to fire it up, and it was totally dead, no sound. My first thought was that it was the capsule. I'd rather have it NOT be the capsule as I don't want anything that would seriously affect the sound of the mic as it sounded when it worked.

I suppose something could have happened to the power supply as well, or even the wiring in the cable too. At least this could be repaired without having to alter the capsule. I don't want to change anything in the capsule if I don't have to.

I had Stephen Paul Audio work on a couple of my old Neumann mics many years ago, but I was not sure what their current situation is as I've read different stories.

Being in the Midwest US, I'd have to ship it somewhere, but it's a matter of what I can check here and when I have to ship it off somewhere.

So first, I'll check continuity of all wires in the cable. If that checks out, I guess I'll have to ship it out to have the power supply and mic components checked - hopefully its not the capsule.

Who's the best for servicing old AKG tube mics? Is there anything you can think of that I can check here with a multimeter?
Logged

Klaus Heyne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3154
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2010, 03:01:51 AM »

For your own physical safety and that of other DIYers I will not allow trouble shooting tips for high-voltage equipment, well-meaning as they may be, to be posted here.

Troubleshooting dead mics, especially tube mics efficiently requires an experienced hand.

If you are familiar with tube mic electronics, i.e. high voltage, high impedance equipment, (the capsule's acoustic/mechanical functions are most definitely not the problem here) you will know how to trouble shoot system components in a logical sequence.

If not, give some of the starving professional techs a chance! (no, I am currently not available) and let us all know what the problem ended up being!

Best of luck,
Logged
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com

compasspnt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16266
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2010, 08:12:16 AM »

Whoever you send it to (James Gangwer, SPA, etc.), be sure to specifically tell them NOT to touch the capsule unless absolutely necessary, and only with your explicit approval.
Logged

miics

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 69
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2010, 06:12:44 AM »

Klaus is right, don't play with it if your not with it skill wise as these mics can definitly give you a nasty if you are NOT sure of what you are doing.

cheers

ryan streber

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 114
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2010, 08:51:13 AM »

This may be a really dumb idea, and I ask Klaus to delete if I'm totally off-base on this.  But, did you (OP) check to see if the tube is firmly seated? A couple years ago, I had a VM1 "die" on me, and I thought I had to send it out for repair.  Luckily I decided to open it up to check for obvious problems, and sure enough the tube had slightly slipped out of its socket and just needed to be reseated.  Since you mentioned that it used to cut out when it was held sideways, maybe it (or something else) was loose and has now become disconnected or lost contact. Just a thought...

No sincere idea is a dumb idea. Great suggestion! K.H.
Logged

7Hz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2010, 07:23:30 AM »

If interested to reskin the capsule , welcome to contact me, we can upgrade with our Golden Drop sputtering method also , if needed. And check the components functionality also.
Logged
JZ Microphones
Rock N Roll
viesturs@jzmic.com
+371 29839708
skype: viestursbalodis
http://www.jzmic.com
JZ Products Guide
http://www.jzmic.com/gallery/productmanuals/1275569071.pdf

Tony Merrill

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 32
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2010, 01:28:06 PM »

Rob, we are indeed still in business. Website should show in my signature.

I would take issue with the statement that there is noone who can rediaphragm these and give them the "magic" that was heard in the "original" configuration. And yes, there is a spread, and they can sound wonderful and they can sound awful. I serviced a 251 not long ago which had never been opened - one of the worst sounding 251s I (and several others) have heard. When I opened the head, I confirmed that the capsule was untouched and in "good" condition. With the owner's blessing, I was able to retune the capsule to sound "magical" once again (by more than just my account,) using the original diaphragms.

I would like to reiterate and attempt to COMPLETELY dispel the notion that SPA would EVER do anything to a capsule without the owner's consent. This is a false legend, and I'm really sick of it. Forget it, and tell all your friends to, as well.
Logged
Tony Merrill
Stephen Paul Audio
www.spaudio.com

compasspnt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16266
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2010, 02:23:17 PM »

I would like to know more about "upgrading with the Golden Drop sputtering method."
Logged

J.J. Blair

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12809
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2010, 01:03:22 AM »

Tony, I'm assuming, since you said you made it sound better, using the original diaphragms, that you simply tuned the delay network?
Logged
studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

miics

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 69
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2010, 08:58:05 AM »

compasspnt wrote on Thu, 10 June 2010 04:23

I would like to know more about "upgrading with the Golden Drop sputtering method."




hmm yeah me too.  

Tim Campbell

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 203
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2010, 11:08:57 AM »

"The Golden Drop sputtering method" refers to sputtering the membrane in an interconnecting lace like pattern instead of a solid coating.

JZ seem to think this has advantages.

I personally haven't noticed any improvements on capsules that have lost gold in random patterns.
Logged
Campbell Transmitter
www.timcampbell.dk

Oliver Archut

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1125
Re: Does anyone resputter gold diaphrams anymore?
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2010, 01:08:23 PM »

I never tried JZ version of it, but I have tried some experimental versions of that that supposedly were done by the IRT in the 70s.
The general idea is to compensate the frequency responds by changing the static suck, the idea was dropped because the effect is to little to make a big impact, but AKG did something into the same basic direction late 70s early 80s, hotprinting membranes with a pattern that would actually do correct the frequencies issues.

Best regards,

Logged
Oliver Archut
www.tab-funkenwerk.com

We are so advanced, that we can develop technology that can determine how much damage the earth has taken from the development of that technology.
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
 

Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.076 seconds with 19 queries.