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Author Topic: What's with all the fuss about M/S?  (Read 16561 times)

Andrew Hamilton

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Re: Overthinking 102... Was: Re: What's with all the fuss about M/S?
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2010, 10:05:30 am »

Gold wrote on Mon, 03 May 2010 10:38

Andrew Hamilton wrote on Sun, 02 May 2010 23:30


So, Burgess was right not to use trafos, then.  


Since they were mainly used for disk cutting, having low end phase shift and/or distortion is a bad thing. It will cause more vertical excursion.





Aren't there trafos on most lathe inputs?  I heard about a trafo-less lathe, but was told it was a late development.  




Andrew
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masterhse

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Re: What's with all the fuss about M/S?
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2010, 10:40:11 am »

compasspnt wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 08:41

White.



Or silver.



I find silver to be a bit bright, possibly a 600 ohm termination could fix this. Though white or silver will still get me to the same destination if driven properly.
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Tom Volpicelli
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dcollins

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Re: What's with all the fuss about M/S?
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2010, 06:13:37 pm »

masterhse wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 07:40


I find silver to be a bit bright, possibly a 600 ohm termination could fix this. Though white or silver will still get me to the same destination if driven properly.


Yes, but do 99 out of 100 tracks benefit?


DC

TotalSonic

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Re: Overthinking 102... Was: Re: What's with all the fuss about M/S?
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2010, 06:17:11 pm »

Andrew Hamilton wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 10:05



Aren't there trafos on most lathe inputs?  I heard about a trafo-less lathe, but was told it was a late development.  




When was the transformerless SAL74B introduced?  About 1978?  Lots of folks did the conversion of their 74's to 74B's after that time.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

dcollins

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Re: Overthinking 102... Was: Re: What's with all the fuss about M/S?
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2010, 07:08:50 pm »

TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 15:17


When was the transformerless SAL74B introduced?  About 1978?  Lots of folks did the conversion of their 74's to 74B's after that time.



I know Doug and Bernie's systems were transformerless, probably more common than transformer-coupled on the west coast.


DC

masterhse

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Re: What's with all the fuss about M/S?
« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2010, 08:15:15 pm »

dcollins wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 18:13


Yes, but do 99 out of 100 tracks benefit?
DC


Dave, I'm not sure if that was rhetorical but I'll answer anyway with another question.

Can you make a sweeping assumption about 100 tracks?

Best,
Tom
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dcollins

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Re: What's with all the fuss about M/S?
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2010, 08:48:04 pm »

masterhse wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 17:15

dcollins wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 18:13


Yes, but do 99 out of 100 tracks benefit?
DC


Dave, I'm not sure if that was rhetorical but I'll answer anyway with another question.

Can you make a sweeping assumption about 100 tracks?

Best,
Tom



I was just surprised that Brad runs M/S 99% of the time.  The only thing I do that often is hit record.


DC

bblackwood

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Re: What's with all the fuss about M/S?
« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2010, 09:21:35 pm »

dcollins wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 19:48

I was just surprised that Brad runs M/S 99% of the time.

Yah, I'm sure you're surprised...
Quote:

The only thing I do that often is hit record.

I'm betting you EQ 99% of the projects that come through your door.
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Andrew Hamilton

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Re: Overthinking 102... Was: Re: What's with all the fuss about M/S?
« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2010, 03:20:43 am »

TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 18:17

Andrew Hamilton wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 10:05



Aren't there trafos on most lathe inputs?  I heard about a trafo-less lathe, but was told it was a late development.  




When was the transformerless SAL74B introduced?  About 1978?  Lots of folks did the conversion of their 74's to 74B's after that time.

Best regards,
Steve Berson



Since this was just two years before CD was introduced, that was a late development, indeed...  

And the first discs they sneaked on us in large amounts (with DVD-A and SACD, too) were the remastered classics, which were coming from fluttery tape with plenty of iron.  Also, the L2 had not yet been invented.  (;


But every record, from Enrico Caruso's 78's ("...indistinguishable from live performance." [sic]) to all the Van Gelder classics, to all the Beatles (ALL THE BEATLES) lps, to most of Disco, Led Zeppelin, DSOTM (_D_S_O_T_M_!), every His Masters Voice RCA Victor, every Ray Charles hit, etc... managed to have this much staying power in spite of lathe trafos.  

Perhaps, with no trafos in the lacquer/U-Matic channels, we sensed that they had to be put back in the console gear.  But when they were in the lathe electronics, having them also in the eq and comp was probably already adequate "veil" and, since Aspen was the answer,* once the technology permitted, we abandoned as many trafos as we could.  



Andrew




* just checking if you're reading this far into the post
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grantis

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Re: What's with all the fuss about M/S?
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2010, 11:07:25 pm »

Hate to be a pest, but I'm cornfused.

I've done a bunch of reading on the 'net about the 111c, and i'm considering picking up a couple (I'm a mix guy, pardon my barging in on a mastering thread Wink).  

I've come across several wiring diagrams (in schematic form) which i have no idea how to interpret.  I've also come across several pictures of different wiring setups in/out of these bad boys....  

If I understand it correctly, I would want to wire them 1:1 (or 600ohm:600ohm in this case) for greatest headroom correct?  Has anybody configured their 111c's this way?  I'm thinking of inserting these last in my 'chain'.  I'm looking for a straight-forward explanation as to what-terminals-go-where and what's-hot-what's-ground-what's-cold.  Everything I've found on the 'net that looks to be useful is in Japanese....and google translate wasn't much help...haha.

Also, does anybody know if it's important to 'match' these for stereo operation?

thanks for any help!
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TotalSonic

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Re: Overthinking 102... Was: Re: What's with all the fuss about M/S?
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2010, 11:34:42 pm »

Andrew Hamilton wrote on Wed, 05 May 2010 03:20

TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 18:17

Andrew Hamilton wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 10:05



Aren't there trafos on most lathe inputs?  I heard about a trafo-less lathe, but was told it was a late development.  




When was the transformerless SAL74B introduced?  About 1978?  Lots of folks did the conversion of their 74's to 74B's after that time.

Best regards,
Steve Berson



Since this was just two years before CD was introduced, that was a late development, indeed...  


Dunno - it might have been earlier - which is why I had a question mark as I don't know the precise date it happened.  And there was a good 10 years after it was introduced before CD pushed out vinyl - and there was certainly lots of vinyl releases from that point until the present day as well.  My main point being that I have a feeling a lot of lacquers got cut without the signal going through transformers first.

fwiw - Europadisk's transfer console was run single ended.  I'm sure there were others doing similar as well.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Andrew Hamilton

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Re: Overthinking 102... Was: Re: What's with all the fuss about M/S?
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2010, 07:22:45 am »

Yes, many vinyl releases - and CD releases were made in the years after the advent of the transformerless lathe. How funny if they could have sounded better by sounding worse...  And now we read of those adding trafos back to the mastering console in order put sonic clothes back on otherwise naked modern music.   Not an exact rule, but possibly a trend.  I don't begrudge Sherwood Sax for wishing to minimize the number of trafos that a signal passes through on its way to the record.   After all, back then, most recording studios had already added too much iron, by force.   But once the technology permitted transformerless mic pres, and analog tape was also replaced by digital storage, the transients became like weapons.   "Naked truth wants clothing to look smart.  Let our ME's portray you in iron and germanium and various modes of self-erasure."




Andrew
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Gold

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Re: Overthinking 102... Was: Re: What's with all the fuss about M/S?
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2010, 09:34:11 am »

There were many more important elements to the SAL to SAL B upgrade. Most important was the redesign of the grounding system. FWIW I think the Haufe transformer input sounds better than the balancing board they made.
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Garrett H

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Re: What's with all the fuss about M/S?
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2010, 10:13:37 am »

masterhse wrote on Mon, 03 May 2010 22:18

... I'm amazed at the polarity of opinion among mastering engineers but the quality of work done by all concerned.



+1
Well put, Tom.
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