[dave-G]

Once familiar with listening to the results, I don't think a good mastering engineer is any more likely to overuse or damage a mix with MS processing than to damage it by overuse of any other available process.

Sometimes it can be a way to address something more subtly than LR.

-dave

[philip]

M/S is not a tool. It is a way to decode music to work with it as music is  perceived.

eg three channels. left middle and right.

If you can't handle to work with music decoded to three channels instead of two you need to work on it. It is nothing esoteric with it, just another approach.

[bigaudioblowhard]

Jaakko

I looked and looked but could not find the post from the guy who used the 3.3k ohm
resistor as termination. I'll take DC's word for it, and stick to 680.

Other hunting around the net I found that some Japanese Audiophiles use 111C's on the output of a CD Player, apparently to add some mojo, but I've never found any evidence that they are terminating. If they're feeding 600 ohm devices, like Altec tube amps, I guess its okay.

If I were feeding an unbalanced input from a 111C, would I just drop the Pin3 after termination?

bab

[Gold]

bigaudioblowhard wrote on Tue, 27 April 2010 23:39

Jaakko, are you terminating the 111C's with 600 ohm resistors?

I run mine unterminated. I thought they sounded better. There is a slight HF rise but I live with it. I didn't try 3300 ohm though. I hardly ever use them anyway.

[Gold]

bigaudioblowhard wrote on Wed, 28 April 2010 15:30

If I were feeding an unbalanced input from a 111C, would I just drop the Pin3 after termination?

One side of the secondary would go to signal + and the other to ground. Most likely don't connect pin 1.

[Viitalahde]

Good, I feel like I accidentally bumped on a bee's nest. I sort of intended to do that.

Of course M/S is just another tool at our arsenal, and a powerful one. A good ME will know when to use one. I just wanted to hear why I feel that it's a sort of a default thing to do these days and why I don't see the uses for everyday work.

111C's: Gotta try the terminations. They are an interesting sound, but definately not for everything. I was thinking of using them as M/S decoders, but I think I won't. But they will be around.

[bigaudioblowhard]

I don't use mine much either.

I did do some AB'ing with them terminated vs. unterminated. You have to match the levels very closely to get the fairest comparison. IIRC, with the term. the level drops 3.1 dB. Ended up going with terminated, but can't remember why.

Heres a bad pic of my WE Passive EQ, HF only, you can see the 111C poking out the bottom.

sorry about the size, anyone know how to resize a cell phone pic so it doesn't take over the whole screen




bab

(edited for pic size - bb)

[masterhse]

I don't know if you have seen this, but it may be of interest regarding 111C and 119C performance:

 http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/non-linear_transformer_be  havior.htm#Western_Electric_119C_Repeating_Coil_Frequency_Re sponse

[dcollins]

masterhse wrote on Wed, 28 April 2010 17:02

I don't know if you have seen this, but it may be of interest regarding 111C and 119C performance:  http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/non-linear_transformer_be  havior.htm#Western_Electric_119C_Repeating_Coil_Frequency_Re sponse

I don't know if there is a transformer today that is better than the 111c.  


DC

[Viitalahde]

OK, I took the load resistor out of my 111C's and to my surprise they do sound much better. Could be the driver that is working on an easier load, but this is not a small difference. I now even like them more as decoders.

The HF rise is very small, starts from 3kHz and is just 0,05 dB up at ~20kHz, where it seems to peak.

Offtopic, but interesting.

[Gold]

Ha, vindication!  Yeah, I'm sure it has to do with drive capability. I know the Neumann RV75's cause the test equipment to display a giant blinking red SUCK light when this is tested.

[Tubefreak]

Funny, I use M/S all the time. Don't know if this says more about me or the average material I get, but I'm just used to it. Really know how to listen to the mix and EQ in M/S. Adding sparkle to the air in the music, without touching the vocals, removing out of phase rumble without touching the kick/bass, etc. I find it very, very useful especially for rock/metal, not so much with dance/techno.

Maarten

[compasspnt]

That's what I like about you Maarten, you admit it!

Ha, just kidding.

Whatever Works.

[Gold]

I have a feeling the best way to use the 111c's is with a 1 watt 600 ohm termination  resistor . Then make sure the resistor gets warm. I think they can take +36dBM with 1% THD @20hz. Insane. I'm too lazy to look it up.

[dcollins]

Gold wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 16:23

I have a feeling the best way to use the 111c's is with a 1 watt 600 ohm termination  resistor . Then make sure the resistor gets warm. I think they can take +36dBM with 1% THD @20hz. Insane. I'm too lazy to look it up.

Even with the AP at full output, you don't get any significant distortion from them.   It's a remarkable design.


DC