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Author Topic: KM84 as live vocal mic?  (Read 22492 times)

Mark Lemaire

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KM84 as live vocal mic?
« on: April 01, 2010, 01:20:04 AM »

Folks-

In the never-ending search for a great live vocal sound, this idea recently came to mind. It was partially inspired by learning that the KM54 was used by the Beatles sometimes (not often) on close-miked vocals. Of course, one must use a good windscreen...

Anyone else do this? Any danger to the capsule (provided I use a foam windscreen? Note that my vocal style is mellow and not very aggressive. I tried it today on my PA and (after turning down the bass most of the way) found the sound pretty damn fine, no feedback issues to speak of.

Another note: I used to bring my U67 to play outdoor weddings!!
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Mark Lemaire

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Klaus Heyne

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2010, 02:13:33 PM »

Mark Lemaire wrote on Wed, 31 March 2010 22:20

...learning that the KM54 was used by the Beatles sometimes (not often) on close-miked vocals. Of course, one must use a good windscreen...Anyone else do this?


Yes.
First, there is the Neumann KMS84- in essence a KM84 with a bunch of padding in front of the capsule, so it can be used without popping.

Then there are a couple of seminal Frank Sinatra records that were made with SD mics:


index.php/fa/14563/0/
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Klaus Heyne
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compasspnt

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2010, 04:31:04 PM »

If you use an 84, which could sound great, the "pop filtering" will be the biggest issue!

Followed by proximity effect.

An 86 would be somewhat easier, and mostly similar sound-wise.
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burp182

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2010, 04:59:21 PM »

Did a live big band gig with Frank Jr. and, after trying a lot of alternatives, ended up using a KM84 (held WELL away from his mouth) as the gig mic. He has great control, so problems during the evening were minimal. Subsequently got him a KMS140 which worked wonderfully and solved the pop problems. Not a common or inexpensive mic, but miles better than the KMS105 and anything else we found for a natural sound.
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Michael Brebes

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2010, 05:38:01 PM »

The KMS104 is supposed to be similar to a KM184 but with the pop filtering for live vocal work.  A great sounding live mic.
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Jeff Stuart Saltzman

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2010, 06:20:12 PM »

I've always loved the mod look of this early hand held version of the KMS85 (84 w/low end roll off)index.php/fa/14557/0/
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Jeff

John Monforte

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2010, 12:29:26 AM »

If you stand on the mic the way people use an SM58, it will have a hefty dose of proximity effect and will need pop filtering. Since the mic does not have an internal high pass filter, your preamp will work hard and you will then have to correct it afterwards in the chain. All very fixable problems.

On the other hand, I have used a good SD condenser for backup singers - back in the day when they were recorded at once with a single mic. Today's fashion is to have one mic per sound source and often people are using only LDCs for everything. Also, everything is mic'd close in. I like the contrasts afforded by different perspectives and different mic types and I miss that in today's recordings.

If you start a new aesthetic with this it would please me greatly. I think today's sounds are getting pretty monchromatic.
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Andres Gonzalez

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2010, 10:28:55 AM »

compasspnt wrote on Thu, 01 April 2010 16:31

An 86 would be somewhat easier, and mostly similar sound-wise.



Interesting you should say this Terry. Just a couple of months ago we did a session where the producer wanted a 'Motown' like sound for his female vocalist. So, when we auditioned several vocal mics, we put up a KM86 along with other 'usual' LDC mics (including a nice sounding U67). The producer picked the KM86--it sounded great on this vocalist.

-Andres
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compasspnt

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2010, 10:42:41 AM »

Andres Gonzalez wrote on Mon, 05 April 2010 10:28

...the producer wanted a 'Motown' like sound for his female vocalist...we auditioned several vocal mics...The producer picked the KM86...



Which is what so many Motown vocals were recorded with.
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Mark Lemaire

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2010, 02:02:34 AM »

"If you stand on the mic the way people use an SM58, it will have a hefty dose of proximity effect and will need pop filtering."

Exactly. I am using this mic for live vocals (sound reinforcement). The only way to avoid feedback issues is to work the mic close. I am using windscreen and backing off the lows. We'll see how various venues/ audiences take it as the season progresses. For now, I am enjoying the open top end the 84 is giving me when compared to SM58 and the like. I also like the fact that sound is still useful when I back off a bit, instead of dying completely.

While the Neumann 105 (have I got the model number?) is designed for live work, I am not buying right now, but would rather experiment with what I have.
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Mark Lemaire

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Klaus Heyne

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2010, 02:17:02 AM »

For what it's worth:
Neil Young has used KM84 (modified) for many years for his live performances in halls small, medium and very large, on acoustic guitars (CSN&Y) as well as drum overheads (Crazy Horse).

That tells me, that a sensitive studio mic like a KM84 can be used for sound reinforcement, as long as it's in the hands of talented live mixers.
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Klaus Heyne
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Mark Lemaire

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2010, 01:40:11 AM »

Thanks, Klaus- didn't know that- though I'm not suprised that the 84 gets used that way. I also see 414s as drum overheads at gigs, and seem to recall U87s on drums at a Stones gig some time back. I am assuming (until someone adds more info on the subject)that the need for bass rolloff and pop-filtering are the main reasons that the 84 has not been a live vocals choice for many folks?

I find that, while Shure SM58s are ubiquitous as live vocal mics, they also leave a lot to be desired in terms of sound.
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Mark Lemaire

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Klaus Heyne

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2010, 02:22:47 AM »

Controlling 'plosives in a microphone with axially mounted capsule (KM84) is close to impossible without lots of acoustic trickery in front of and around the capsule (KMS84) to deflect the onslaught of LF sound pressure.
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Klaus Heyne
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Fletcher

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2010, 08:17:53 AM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 02:17

For what it's worth:
Neil Young has used KM84 (modified) for many years for his live performances in halls small, medium and very large, on acoustic guitars (CSN&Y) as well as drum overheads (Crazy Horse).


All due respect for Neil's FOH engineer [who I've met a few times but can't recall the name at the moment], this is not uncommon by any stretch of the imagination.

While most acoustic guitars in these situations use internal pickups, many still use microphones [especially in smaller venues]... condensers are not "forbidden" by any stretch of the imagination.

Without blowing my employers horn, I can faithfully say that I know of at least a dozen tours that are using condenser microphones [both lg. and small diaphragm] on everything from drum overheads to guitar cabinets.  I know of 3 "major" tours that are using stereo lg. diaphragm condenser microphones with tube amplifiers for drum overhead duties [and why not, the stands are built into the drum riser so it's not a nightly setup struggle... and the use of a "stereo mic" helps keep the audio "true" while lowering the profile of the microphone in the sight lines as to not get in the way of the 'rear wall projection video' behind the band].

The days of the myth that only dynamic mics could be used in sound reinforcement applications began to dissolve in the late 1980's and has all but disappeared.  Every Rolling Stones tour since "Steel Wheels" [1989] has used U-87's for drum overheads... Aerosmith led the way in the use of ribbon mics on live guitar cabinets [mid-90's]... on some of the later Frank Zappa tours they were carrying RCA 77-DX's for the horn section [it looked cool, and sounded GREAT!!].

The list goes on.

Peace.
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
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If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
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Andres Gonzalez

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2010, 10:56:58 AM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 02:17

For what it's worth:
Neil Young has used KM84 (modified) for many years for his live performances in halls small, medium and very large, on acoustic guitars (CSN&Y) as well as drum overheads (Crazy Horse).


For a studio application, using a KM84/KM86 for vocal works for me, but the vocalist cannot eat the mic. Just look at the picture above of Frank Sinatra, he is at least a foot away from the mic.

But in my experience, they will not work if the singer is eating the mic or up very close. The KM84 is the most susceptible mic to 'plosives I have ever used.

Klaus Heyne

Controlling 'plosives in a microphone with axially mounted capsule (KM84) is close to impossible without lots of acoustic trickery in front of and around the capsule (KMS84) to deflect the onslaught of LF sound pressure.


Is this the modification you were referring to earlier regarding Neil Young's modified KM84?  It seems to me that any modification that would reduce the 'plosives would also effect the sound quality in an adverse way. I guess that is why it is "trickery"

-Andres
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