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Author Topic: New TLM102: The Cheapest Large Condenser Neumann  (Read 27441 times)

Jim Williams

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Re: New TLM102: The Cheapest Large Condenser Neumann
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2009, 11:22:55 AM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 22:32

Mike Cleaver wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 13:40


So much of what we buy and use is made in China, some of it good quality....



Can you cite an example or two from the world of microphones, where a specific mic or part for a mic is at last as good in its quality as the comparable product that is manufactured in Europe or the U.S. or Japan?



Not yet, but probably in a couple of years, you know, about the same time Chinese Hummers and Volvo's come off the line.
It's a new world. Machines can be set up anywhere, techs can be trained anywhere and the bottom line will be the bottom line.

I wouldn't be at all suprised if Sennheiser moved production there. Cost of manufacturing plus the regulations in Germany are becoming prohibitive.
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Jim Williams
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Oliver Archut

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Re: New TLM102: The Cheapest Large Condenser Neumann
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2009, 11:13:21 AM »

There are a several Chinese 797 capsules that are as good as AKG maybe even Neumann if compared to the TLM 103 capsule

Better than MT Gefell? Definitely.

Best
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Oliver Archut
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ryan streber

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Re: New TLM102: The Cheapest Large Condenser Neumann
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2009, 10:32:26 AM »

Ouch!  Has Gefell really slipped that far in your opinion?  
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Oliver Archut

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Re: New TLM102: The Cheapest Large Condenser Neumann
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2009, 01:20:57 PM »

From all the capsules Microtech Gefell sold me since 2005, 50% just cracked and the rest started wrinkling up. The sound varies from good to not usable.

Does not belong to the TLM, but you asked...
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Oliver Archut
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Fletcher

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Re: New TLM102: The Cheapest Large Condenser Neumann
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2009, 09:37:18 AM »

Interesting observation Oliver... perhaps they're selling you "B stock"?  

I have encountered no such problem with Gefell, then again I was mostly dealing with finished product.

Peace.
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch.  
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

Oliver Archut

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Re: New TLM102: The Cheapest Large Condenser Neumann
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2009, 11:15:47 AM »

Gefell approached me to use their M7s in Vintage restorations, Did they send me B- stock? I do not know, the first capsules I got from them where stellar (and still work fine), the Berlin repairs (M7, K54, etc.) were nearly as good as NOS Berlin capsules. Then something happened- when is quite hard to tell, but pretty much the time Mr. Rowehl (MG's sales manager through the 1990s) had left the company.

But the problem was not just with spare capsules; even the UM92s I bought from them/referred to customer of mine have the same failure ratio.

After talking to MG's head of capsule manufacturing, he hinted that at one point in the last 2 to 4 years (he was very hesitant to answer my questions directly) MG changed the PVC material, as well as the diaphragm glue.
The current general manger insisted later that I must have misunderstood the head of capsule manufacturing- maybe it was because we spoke in German...
It seems that they first changed the PVC material and the type of glue later.

They offered me to repair those capsules, but even the repairs started failing, first they loose bass and high end, then they crack.

The last repaired M7s I got sounded absolutely unusable. I sent them to several good friends of mine to check it, as well as to Klaus. But MG insists they meet specifications.

The verdict was the same, unusable.

In the end I went back to Sennheiser/Neumann capsules when I needed replacement during vintage mic repairs.


Best regards,


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Oliver Archut
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Fletcher

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Re: New TLM102: The Cheapest Large Condenser Neumann
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2009, 05:07:53 PM »

I would have to assume that these are the same capsules that are in their current product, and while I have not had exposure to their current product for the last 6-7 months I had continual exposure to their product over the 2-4 years previous.

While I do not doubt the PVC might have changed and that the glue might have changed I still don't quite understand the connection to Mr. Rowehl... the marketing guy.

While the materials may have changed, I dare say I have not encountered your problems or experience with PVC based capsule in current MT Gefell product.  I don't doubt for a minute you have, but I have not shared your experience.
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch.  
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

Oliver Archut

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Re: New TLM102: The Cheapest Large Condenser Neumann
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2009, 06:32:30 PM »

Hello Fletcher,

As you know from your dealings with Gefell, they do not live off studio mics.
For years there have been talks at Gefell to discontinue the PVC M7 because it is more difficult to make, and because the rate of rejection is higher than with Mylar capsules.

Jerry (Graham, co-owner of G-Prime, MG's first U.S. importer, an a part-owner of the company at the time -K.H.) gave me that information first hand, when G-Prime wanted a modern tube mic, the UM92 came alive and he rejected the Mylar based M7 Gefell suggested, in favor for the PVC M7.

After G-Prime lost the Gefell distribution in the US, Mr. Rowehl was the last one at MG who tried to keep PVC M7 in production.

Sharing the experience?
I can send you the last batch of Gefell ones for you to try.

Best regards,
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Oliver Archut
www.tab-funkenwerk.com

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Fletcher

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Re: New TLM102: The Cheapest Large Condenser Neumann
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2009, 10:07:49 AM »

Interesting relation of a 20 year old conversation... I wonder if that was before or after Steve [Jerry's partner and Gefell importer post "G Prime"] stitched them up for about $50k worth of product [as relayed by Mr. Rowehl, hence 2nd hand information but from what I think we both consider a credible source].

I don't fully doubt your experience, but do take it with a grain of salt as you are a manufacturer of microphones who may have an ulterior motive [not saying you do, but the possibility does exist].  I am simply saying that I have not shared that experience.

I have nothing to gain or lose with my observation, just relaying my observation... my personal experience.

I guess the next question would be how you're finding (Chinese) '797' capsules in quality relation to other Neumann capsules other than the TLM-103 capsule... interesting you find them better than AKG capsules.  Guys like Stayne McLean have done some VERY impressive work using the "modern" CK-12 capsule.

Peace.
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch.  
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

Klaus Heyne

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Re: New TLM102: The Cheapest Large Condenser Neumann
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2009, 11:42:06 AM »

Fletcher wrote on Wed, 04 November 2009 07:07

(...) Guys like Stayne McLean have done some VERY impressive work using the "modern" CK-12 capsule.


Please elaborate, as probably only very few people who read this may know your reference: Who is Stayne McLean, and what has he done with CK-12-style capsules that impressed you (I had not heard about him before myself)?

Thanks,
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Klaus Heyne
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Jeff Roberts

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Re: New TLM102: The Cheapest Large Condenser Neumann
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2009, 01:20:05 PM »

Fletcher is referring to the owner of InnerTube Audio, and their MM2000 Microphone, often called the MagMic.
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Jeff Roberts
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Reese Boisse

J.J. Blair

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Re: New TLM102: The Cheapest Large Condenser Neumann
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2009, 06:48:23 PM »

A couple things:
I can confirm the cracks and wrinkling in the reskinned Berlin capsule.  I would not say "unusable," about the sound, but I did not care for it.  If that fact that I would not use it in my make makes it unusable, then so be it.  But to me, unusable means that it's completely unlistenable.  

I also think the implication that Oliver is badmouthing Gefell because he is making mics now, is a bit silly.  Not only because I agree with his assessment of the capsule, but also because Lucas mics are not competing with Gefell's market share.  Besides, you don't presell over 300 mics, without people hearing them, because you've said Gefell capsules are crap.  It makes no sense.

Also, I would be careful perpetuating that idea, because I keep hearing this story, with your name attached to it.  Your name carries weight, and I've had two people tell me a similar story, preceded by, "Fletcher told me."

Anyway, since when did Stayne start using a CK12 type capsule?  I am only familiar with him using center terminated capsules, both single and dual backplate.  I would also take issue with referring to his work as "VERY impressive."  I have yet to hear a Mag Mic that has made me want to use one on a session, particularly the dual backplate one.  The one I heard was very "spitty," and prone to proximity effect in a way that made me question the implementation of that capsule on that amplifier.  
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Stephen Andrew Bright

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Re: New TLM102: The Cheapest Large Condenser Neumann
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2009, 09:07:41 PM »

Stayne does a C12VR mod where he replaces the VR tube circuit with his Mag Mic electronics, while keeping the stock CK12 capsule. He had a bunch of these mods lined up back when I needed to get my C12VR modded, but I elected to send mine to Oliver with Tim's brass CK12 reskin.

Stephen
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Stephen Andrew Bright
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: New TLM102: The Cheapest Large Condenser Neumann
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2009, 09:12:33 PM »

Stephen Andrew Bright wrote on Thu, 05 November 2009 18:07

(...) while keeping the stock CK12 capsule.

You must have meant the "Teflon" new-style CK12 TL capsule, because that is the capsule that is stock in all C12VR.

It's certainly hard to have an intelligent discussion about AKG's CK12 capsule, when they gave two rather different capsules the same name.
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
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Oliver Archut

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Re: New TLM102: The Cheapest Large Condenser Neumann
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2009, 10:53:20 PM »

I don't fully doubt your experience, but do take it with a grain of salt as you are a manufacturer of microphones who may have an ulterior motive [not saying you do, but the possibility does exist].

A friend of mine told me once that if a company has to point out that it is a professional microphone, it probably is not.
I am applying that wisdom to your statement.

Microphone manufacturer? Thank you for that compliment.

Interesting relation of a 20 year old conversation... I wonder if that was before or after Steve [Jerry's partner and Gefell importer post "G Prime"] stitched them up for about $50k worth of product [as relayed by Mr. Rowehl, hence 2nd hand information but from what I think we both consider a credible source].

I do not understand what that has to do with good or bad capsules?

I guess the next question would be how you're finding (Chinese) '797' capsules in quality relation to other Neumann capsules other than the TLM-103 capsule... interesting you find them better than AKG capsules.

Sennheiser/Neumann is still the manufacturer of the world's best capsule, the K47/49, and sure the Chinese won't compare to it. But there are several '797' capsules that are pretty good compared to the K870.

Better than AKG? Your wording "Modern CK12" is pretty much misleading, if you refer to the Nylon CK12 or better know as the Teflon CK12, it is an O.K. capsule, but there are several 797 as well as Alcatons that do a better job.

To put it in a different context, there is not a bad microphone or capsule, there is only the wrong or improper application.
Or to use your wording, your mileage may vary!

At the same time I find the capsules of the RFT Series of microphones better than AKGs or Gefell, even though they are globally sourced, but for 'Made in China' capsules they kick butt!

In the end this is still the TLM102 domain, as I said if you want to check out the last Gefell M7 PVC to share my experience, let me know.

Best regards,
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Oliver Archut
www.tab-funkenwerk.com

We are so advanced, that we can develop technology that can determine how much damage the earth has taken from the development of that technology.
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