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Author Topic: Critic At Large, Vol. IV: The Beatles Remastered  (Read 43607 times)

Nick Sevilla

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Re: Critic At Large, Vol. IV: The Beatles Remastered
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2009, 09:36:44 PM »

I will be buying the Mono set.

A friend of mine has all the original vynil releases in mono, as well as stereo. These are actually from that period, and are in very good condition.

We will listen.... and hear the difference.

Cheers
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Dick Swaneveld

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Re: Critic At Large, Vol. IV: The Beatles Remastered
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2009, 02:24:09 AM »

This "remastering" of The Beatles is like old Laurel and Hardy movies in color.
I cannot stand these and consider it disrespectfull to everybody that was part of the job creating these icons.

Why not keep things in the historical perspective and "let it be" in the quality of that time ?

Richard
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Plush

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Re: Critic At Large, Vol. IV: The Beatles Remastered
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2009, 12:54:13 PM »

I value the "extreme purist" commentary here for its unstinting demand to preserve music from an era intact in its original form.

I bought the re-done "Rubber Soul" which I understand is from an 80's remix done by George Martin. It's pretty good and fun to listen to.

I'm hoping that the mono box set will fulfill more of Klaus's demands. However, I am patiently waiting for the mono box set to be available.

Let's not forget that the greedy ferengi, Guy Hands,  badly needs a cash infusion. However, selling Beatles records won't even scratch the surface of the bailout he requires.
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Critic At Large, Vol. IV: The Beatles Remastered
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2009, 02:24:05 PM »

I did not intend to take an "extreme purist" position on reissues of recordings that were originally mastered for a different release format (vinyl, in this case.) There is a tasteful and respectful way to use new playback formats and still be true to the art, as much as the new formats allow.

I was simply pointing out that there is a fine but strong line between historically accurate restoration of an art piece and re-interpreting or pretending to guessing the "intention" of the creators, forty years later. And then doing so in a very audible, not subtle, way.

It's probably harder to mess up a good thing when doing a mono mix box, but the principal issue is the same here as it is with the atrocious rebalancing or plain invention of sounds, ambience and effects, as was done on the stereo recordings in this Beatles box set.
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Klaus Heyne
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McAllister

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Re: Critic At Large, Vol. IV: The Beatles Remastered
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2009, 03:28:23 PM »

Nick Sevilla wrote on Thu, 10 September 2009 21:36

I will be buying the Mono set.

A friend of mine has all the original vynil releases in mono, as well as stereo. These are actually from that period, and are in very good condition.

We will listen.... and hear the difference.

Cheers



Please report back.
It is this comparison I am most interested to hear.
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mwurfl

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Re: Critic At Large, Vol. IV: The Beatles Remastered
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2009, 03:58:09 PM »

On the morning of the 9th I was very lucky to have been able to buy both the last mono and the last stereo box sets from a local record store.  I have many of the ‘80s CDs (yuk!), as well as the EMI “Blue Box Set” of vinyl reissues that was released in the early ‘80s.  A few years ago I did some transcriptions of the Blue Box vinyl records to CD, and only “restored” them by taking out all the surface clicks and pops manually (it took a long time!), with no other de-noising or enhancement of any kind.  Those have been my primary reference for the sound of the stereo mixes until now.

First, I have to say that I think they indeed did a great job on the mono set.  I believe it will now serve as the definitive reference for years to come for the sound that George M and the lads intended for the world to hear.  No remorse for me at all for that purchase.

I’m still really evaluating the stereo set, but I can offer these preliminary observations:  I too hear things I don’t really like.  There are songs and sections of songs that sound more compressed than I’d like.  In comparison to the BB vinyls, the bass is still not really “there” as much; in those vinyls, the bass and kick have that true chest-thumping power and authority that lends great excitement, which is still disappointingly missing from the new stereo set.

But most disturbing of all to me about the stereo set is that some of the mixes seem altered, and not in a good way.  E.g., in “Long, Long, Long,” the vocal seems too buried (again, compared to my vinyl, as well as the earlier CD!), and in “Strawberry Fields Forever,” some of the instrumental flourishes and fills seem mixed down too much, too.

The one thing I think is definitely better is that, in the Blue Box set, there is enough sibilance distortion that at times some songs are almost unlistenable, at least very loud.  (And I tried three high-end cartridges during the transcription, so it’s not due to that.)  The new box set is definitely better in that regard.

So for me, my bottom line is that it was a worthy project, and likely a worthy purchase, in that I now have more versions of the songs from which to choose my favorites.  But the real value I can perceive is if, due to the hype, marketing or whatever, a new generation will develop an appreciation for the musical genius that The Beatles truly exemplify.

Mark W
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Empty Planet

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Re: Critic At Large, Vol. IV: The Beatles Remastered
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2009, 01:07:12 AM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Thu, 10 September 2009 02:29


...empowered themselves to add some nice clouds here, (listen to the new, cheesy slap-back echo added on Lennon’s voice in “If I fell”)



I don't think that's a slapback, I think that's another vocal -- you can hear it cut out prematurely on the "meeee" of "help me understand."

The stereo version is different from the mono version, which sounds  single tracked to me.  I don't know the particulars of the making of the stereo version, but it strikes me as possible that whoever was doing it might have thought the vocal sounded a little thin stretched out into this strange format called "stereo."

Whatever the story, I think the double was intentional and original, cheesy or not.  At least its on my pre-9/09/09 stereo version.


Cheers.


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PP

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Re: Critic At Large, Vol. IV: The Beatles Remastered
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2009, 11:34:37 AM »

The Night.

Before he died.

John Lennon (A British Artist).

Spoke together with Sir George Martin.

And told him, that if he only could, he would like.

To Re-Record every single Record, he had ever made, to date.

He was convinced, that they all needed changes, and they all could have been done better.

This persuasion of mind is far more common in Great Artistic Talents than most would think, and most regularly found in Gifted Writers.

There was no thought at all in his mind, that within 24 hours, he would be dead!

But sadly, that was not the case, time had caught him unawares.

And the opportunity for anything and everything.

He wanted to do in his life.

Was gone forever.




And now!

It appears that to some degree, this last expressed wish, has now been fulfilled.

If he had lived, it would have happened a very long time ago.

I for one, am very glad, and most particularly.

About the Mono Versions.




Enthusiasts.

Of The Beatles.

Will naturally have.

All their previous Versions.

Which they can continue to enjoy.




Had he lived, John Lennon would have been intimately involved in personally overseeing, these Re-Masters.






P


Name: Peter Poyser.

Location: Oxford England.
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Critic At Large, Vol. IV: The Beatles Remastered
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2009, 03:40:16 PM »

Nice poem, Peter, but I need to argue my case on four fronts against yours:

1. George Martin who IS still alive (and mentally well, to my knowledge) was not contracted in the making of the re-issues

2. John Lennon was of course dead, and did not get his wish you expressed in your poem (at least it's not known to the surviving world, whether he would or would not have approved of the box set's creative licenses and sonic alterations undertaken by people unrelated, and most likely largely unknown, to him)

3. Even if John Lennon were still alive, he would have needed to consult with other former Beatles in the creative alterations that were made during the remastering of the original tapes, and get their approval

4. Even if George Martin, all four Beatles, Geoff Emmerick, and all of his engineering colleagues would have been present during the remastering process, the original works of art would still need to be fully respected and adhered to, and any sonic alterations would have needed to clearly be marketed as re-interpretations

I think the current box set would have been a perfectly fine and non-controversial re-issue if the participants mentioned above had all been a. present, and b. in agreement that the remasters presented in front of them were fully compatible with the timbre, creative intentions and sonic imprint of their original works. Only then one could legitimately label the effort "restoration".

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Klaus Heyne
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PP

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Re: Critic At Large, Vol. IV: The Beatles Remastered
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2009, 03:58:28 AM »

Quote: “I need to argue my case on four fronts against yours.”




You must.

Forgive me the fact.

That I prefer not to argue.

With anyone, on any front at all, if possible.

Most especially when it is the case that I retain a degree of respect, for the singular personality involved.

However, you now have presented four entirely new thoughts for consideration, and these, are worthy of a properly coherent response, by way of contrast.




Quote:  “George Martin who IS still alive (and mentally well, to my knowledge) was not contracted in the making of the re-issues”




Sadly.

He has suffered from hearing loss, for some time.

And although he was seriously involved in post work for The Beatles Anthology.

There are currently, many sensitivities of Business Politics, as well as Economic Considerations necessary to bear in mind.

Ultimately, at some definite point, you have to hand the reigns over to someone else, and he has achieved this necessary exercise, with very great dignity.

In any case, Sir George Martin, always elected to compliment his own highly individual skill set, by surrounding himself with a highly disciplined team of specialist expertise. Personally, I have normally adopted the same approach whenever possible. In fact, I can distinctly remember an Artist commenting to me, “I know the secret of your success. You surround yourself with talent, and everybody else makes you look good!”

To really believe this very great gentleman, for whom I have the utmost respect, could today, possibly recall with accuracy, the plethora of technical detail, of what and how, this and that was done, and by whom, after all this time; and following a sweepingly comprehensive revolution in technology with which he would need to coalesce, is for my imagination at least, one considerable gymnastic leap too far, for the synapses.

Sir George Martin has long since handed over the sonic responsibilities of mixing, to individuals he respects, who have rather more sensitive hearing, than he does at his age.

Rupert Coulson and Chris Sheldon mixed the last Album He Produced. I see that as an extremely mature approach, entirely becoming of the Man of Statue he is. Worthy of admiration.

Things and People move on....




Quote: "John Lennon was of course dead, and did not get his wish you expressed in your poem (at least it's not known to the surviving world, whether he would or would not have approved of the box set's creative licenses and sonic alterations undertaken by people unrelated, and most likely largely unknown, to him)




It’s a fact.

That John Lennon expressed the desire to completely Re-Record and overhaul his entire output.

He himself, in retrospective mood, was not happy with some of the ‘tricks' as he called them, of their Producer.

Furthermore, it’s another fact that Sir Paul McCartney has himself undertaken to do the same on a number of different tracks.

In effect, almost entirely recreating completely different Recordings altogether, than the well loved Versions, the public at large are familiar with.

I am not of the opinion that John Lennon himself believed, that what he wanted, would ever be possible to accomplish. But he was not precious about the Recordings.

And neither was Sir Paul McCartney. That, I believe, is the simple, clear and salient point to absorb.




Quote: "Even if John Lennon were still alive, he would have needed to consult with other former Beatles in the creative alterations that were made during the remastering of the original tapes, and get their approval"




It is.

An entirely academic point, you make.

And such was the fierce competitive relationships, that this may not have been easy.

Indeed, other parties would have needed to be involved as well. However, the fact that Sir Paul McCartney himself was dissatisfied, is an inviolably pertinacious certitude.

So undoubtedly, if the Lyricists and Composers, the motivational creative engine of The Beatles themselves wanted this, then the agreement and resources needed, would have been made available to meet their wishes, at the right time, commercially.




Quote: "Even if George Martin, all four Beatles, Geoff Emmerick, and all of his engineering colleagues would have been present during the remastering process, the original works of art would still need to be fully respected and adhered to, and any sonic alterations would have needed to clearly be marketed as re-interpretations"




I understand your point.

Personally, I do not at all believe.

That the central figures originally involved.

Were as preciously guarded about these aesthetics.

Indeed, I believe it to be the case, that such details were what.

Lennon and McCartney themselves disliked, and what they wanted to alter.  

There is considerable evidence, that this is the case, and it is what shapes my view.




But I can appreciate how inconvenient it must be, to directly argue with someone, that has chosen to base their personal viewpoint, entirely on unassailable facts.

And genuinely sympathise..




Quote: "I think the current box set would have been a perfectly fine and non-controversial re-issue if the participants mentioned above had all been a. present, and b. in agreement that the remasters presented in front of them were fully compatible with the timbre, creative intentions and sonic imprint of their original works. Only then one could legitimately label the effort "restoration".




One.

Always does.

The best job one can.

With the best Technologies.

Currently available at ones disposal.

It ever was, and always will be, the case.




And.

There is.

Considerable.

Historic precedent.

With Great Motion Pictures.

For Restoration being undertaken.

By skilled individuals, completely distinct.

From the original Director and Production Crews.  




My favourite is Andre' Previn's.

"My Fair Lady."
 




It's sheer.

Poetry!







P

Name: Peter Poyser.

Location: Oxford England.
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MDM,

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Re: Critic At Large, Vol. IV: The Beatles Remastered
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2009, 04:54:27 PM »

I like the MONO remasters from the little I have heard.

as far as the mixes, I am content with the original mixes because it shows how they perceived the music AT THE TIME..in the swinging 60's.. which is more important to me than any re-interpretation made 50 years after the fact.. even if Lennon and McCartney would have supervised today, it would of been the heart and mind of men in their 60's in the post-911-era and not young hipsters at the peak of their success.

I like for instance the fact that the percussion on some tracks seems more evident, as do fills, and voices seem less buried.

for instance I noticed how relaxed McCartney was as he sang.

to me the LESS they do today, the better.

regardless of WHO does it.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Critic At Large, Vol. IV: The Beatles Remastered
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2009, 08:11:24 PM »

OK, so I received my box set on the mono CDs in the mail yesterday.  The packaging is pretty special.  Great job on that.

The first record I ever bought was Rubber Soul, when I was 6, so I played that first.  All I can say is that the mono mixes of that record are infinitely better than the stereo mixes.  It's not even close.  "Drive My Car" came on, and I almost started to cry, it was so intense.  Brought me right back to listening on my little GE record player.

I then listened to Revolver, and in that case, I might actually like the stereo mixes better.  They are very different though.  Also, it immediately made me reach the conclusion that Norman Smith did a much better job engineering Rubber Soul than Emerick did on Revolver.
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compasspnt

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Re: Critic At Large, Vol. IV: The Beatles Remastered
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2009, 09:05:50 PM »

Norman was awesome.

And did much more very well; he really made Studio 3 sparkle, for instance.
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Critic At Large, Vol. IV: The Beatles Remastered
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2009, 09:26:51 PM »

J.J. or compasspoint, or other connoisseurs of good engineering: can you name the Beatles LPs where Norman Smith was at the helm as an engineer?

Thanks,
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Klaus Heyne
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compasspnt

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Re: Critic At Large, Vol. IV: The Beatles Remastered
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2009, 10:12:37 PM »

Norman "Hurricane" Smith engineered all Beatles albums through Rubber Soul, approximately 100 songs.

He then became a Producer, producing Pink Floyd's first, second, and fourth albums.

He later had a hit as an artist himself, "Oh Babe, What Would You Say."


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