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Author Topic: Can you hear the transformer in some of these mics?  (Read 19107 times)

Oliver Archut

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Re: Can you hear the transformer in some of these mics?
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2009, 11:12:40 PM »

I once A/B'd a KM84 with a KM54c using a KK64/84 capsule (i.e. both mics sharing the same capsule, but one being a FET the other a tube design) for recording acoustic guitar at ca. 1m distance. There was no significant difference.

I think you had somewhere a problem in your test setup or maybe did not have the right source to mic.
If A/Bing a piano with your mentioned set up you should here differences in the mids, and foremost 3 to 4kHz. Depending on the transformer revision in the 54 it should start rolling off much earlier than the 84.
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Oliver Archut
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megaphone

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Re: Can you hear the transformer in some of these mics?
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2009, 03:53:04 AM »

Not meaning to generalize and bring a definite answer to the subject here: comparing KM74's with KM84's, I came to the conclusion the capsule in these mics has a bigger impact on their sound than their circuit topology.
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Schallfeldnebel

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Re: Can you hear the transformer in some of these mics?
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2009, 06:33:34 AM »

There is not only a mechanical difference between the capsules of the U87 and U87A. The capsule of the U87 was polarised only with 40V instead of 60V. The U77, U67 and the U87A all run on 60V polarization voltage. This 40V for the U87i was only to make it run on phantom power without the need of an oscillator on board. Why Neumann ever decided for this cheapo solution makes me wonder.

The same for KM84, running on 40V while the KM140 and KM184 have an oscillator on board and run on 60V. Soundwise this gives differences also besides a transformers on board or not.  

I doubt the capsule in the KM74 is different from the standard KM84. Just the simple fact it is mounted in a different housing can result in a couple of dB of rise or dip in a certain part of the audioband.

Also the "flat" response of the KM84 you can find on the  Neumann site is a "styled" frequency response. If you would measure the KM84 with a B&K analyzer, what you will see may surprise you. You can also see different plots for the microphones through the years at the Neumann site, because of changed measuring circumstances. What you see nowadays on the website, are plots ironed by the marketing dept.

Look for example at the KM86i and KM76 plots, you can find on the Neumann site. Two microphones with exactly the same capsules and housing, have different frequency plots, one more "styled" than the other.

SFN
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Oliver Archut

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Re: Can you hear the transformer in some of these mics?
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2009, 09:02:37 AM »

You can also see different plots for the microphones through the years at the Neumann site, because of changed measuring circumstances.

I think it would be interesting to see the new mics plotted in the Measuring Circumstances of the old days.

Best regards,


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Stephen Andrew Bright

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Re: Can you hear the transformer in some of these mics?
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2009, 12:29:33 PM »

I have two A/B tests with results on the opposite ends of the spectrum:

First, Schoeps came out with a FET transformerless replacement body for the French M221, called the CMT 30 F. It was designed to use with existing M221 capsules, plus offered a new capsule in mylar. I compared an M221b with a CMT 30 FNU using 2 different M934b capsules, and found them to be so similar that I could not tell the difference. I couldn't hear the transformer, the tube, or the nickel diaphragm. I came to the conclusion (shared by many) that the capsule was mainly responsible for the sound.

Armed with this new info, I set out to create a mic sounding like a Wunder CM7/GT M7, using the same Thiersch M7 transducer, but in lollipop form. I tried it on a Violet Global Pre, a Blue Bottle Rocket Stage 1, and an AKG C480B. None of these came anywhere close to the sound of the Wunder, particularly the Blue. My conclusion was that in the U47's case, the capsule provided only a small part of the sound.

Lastly, I have used the Millennia STT-1, which has the only transformer in/out circuit that I know of, and in that case, the transformer made a much more significant change in sound than in switching from tubes to solid state.

Stephen
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Can you hear the transformer in some of these mics?
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2009, 01:56:45 PM »

Maybe a good way to summarize this thread (so far) is this:

Unless mic circuitry or capsule variability obscure the sonic contribution of a transformer-based microphone, transformers have an audible effect- both positive and negative- on the mic's sound.

Transformer-coupled mic outputs seem to be the preference of most posters here, while the definition of a 'transformerless" mic needs a lot more scrutiny before one can jump to conclusions as to the effect of the absence of a transformer (compare. for ex. Neumann U77 to TLM xxx.)

One more observation:
Anemic, undersized, transformers with marginal overload characteristics, like Haufe's T14/1 which should not have any right to be placed, say, in a five figure ELA M251 nevertheless deliver, because they were mated with the proper circuitry, capsule, acoustic elements, etc.
Yet, replace the same T14/1 transformer in, say, a good sounding C12 with a T14 or HR 2148- transformers found in earlier C12- and you truly appreciate the difference a specific transformer can make in shaping a mic's character.
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Eric H.

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Re: Can you hear the transformer in some of these mics?
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2009, 05:39:29 PM »

Now that you've mentioned that, i find that i quite often carve out between 50 and 100Hz when using U87A or U89 as a main pair.

It is also intersting to hear the difference between the SM69fet and the USM69. The capsule is the same, the transx also, i think, but they redid all the rest. I find the USM69 amp to suck out all the beauty of the capsule.
Between the two, i don't know if you can hear any transfomer, but you can certainly hear differences in the amp.
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Mike Jasper

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Re: Can you hear the transformer in some of these mics?
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2009, 07:06:23 PM »

compasspnt wrote on Sun, 14 June 2009 13:55

Mike Jasper wrote on Sun, 14 June 2009 12:53

I came up with this transformer test after a couple of guys told me, "Of course the mic has a transformer. Can't you hear it?"

I couldn't. And the mic was the Mercenary KM-69.



So you also had a transformerless KM-69 with which to compare?



No, I didn't. But the person in the room with me told me that he could hear the transformer. It happened again later, different mic, different person. He could hear the transformer, I couldn't. I thought there was something wrong with me, but then after listening to a bunch of mics with transformers -- and a bunch that were transformerless -- I couldn't find a discernible pattern.

That's when I came up with the little test.

Jasper
PS -- For some reason, I never get notified about updates to this thread so that's why I'm slow to respond. I get notified about PMs right away, though. Must be some option I've got wrong.
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Mike Jasper

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Re: Can you hear the transformer in some of these mics?
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2009, 07:23:40 PM »

Megaphone wrote on Mon, 15 June 2009 02:53

Not meaning to generalize and bring a definite answer to the subject here: comparing KM74's with KM84's, I came to the conclusion the capsule in these mics has a bigger impact on their sound than their circuit topology.


You know, we had a big shootout at Blue Rock Studios last month and the mics I liked turned out to be (in order) the Wunder CM7, the Gefell 92.1s and the Peluso 2247LE.

Gotta word this right... all the capsules are going for the same thing. They might not be the same thing exactly i.e. an M7, but they're all going for that kind of sound.

So I tend to agree.

EDIT: I just realized something. My two favorite LD non-tube mics are the Sanken CU-41 and Gefell UM70. Both have transformers. But my favorite SD mics -- with the exception of the KM84 -- do not have transformers such as the Nevaton MC49, Sanken CO-100k, Beyer MC930, Schoeps CMC64, Gefell M296 etc.

I don't know what that means exactly, but it's true. Maybe it means I like bigger transformers.

Jasper
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Can you hear the transformer in some of these mics?
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2009, 05:02:03 PM »

"Gotta word this right... all the capsules are going for the same thing. "

Depends on how recent the Peluso is.  He was using a dual backplate capsule up until not that long ago.
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Mike Jasper

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Re: Can you hear the transformer in some of these mics?
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2009, 01:52:31 PM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Fri, 03 July 2009 16:02

"Gotta word this right... all the capsules are going for the same thing. "

Depends on how recent the Peluso is.  He was using a dual backplate capsule up until not that long ago.


I didn't know that about the capsule. But this particular Peluso was fairly recently purchased (in 2008).

Oliver Archut wrote on Sat, 13 June 2009 11:57

Hello Mike,

maybe I am missing the point, but every test is only as good as it is executed. Hearing x-former in links on the Internet? I doubt it too.



They're wav files. So I would expect anybody serious about this test to download them and run them in their DAW.

But not anymore, I took them down. I only got one taker and he never reported his findings anyway. We're done with this I think.


Jasper
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Hank Alrich

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Re: Can you hear the transformer in some of these mics?
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2009, 12:56:36 PM »

Someone serious enough to do it well probably doesn't have enough time!

Last week I got to play into a KM56, and sing into a KH mod'd U67, at Cedar Creek Recording here in Austin, with Fred Remmert engineering. Nice mics. <g>

Mike Jasper

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Re: Can you hear the transformer in some of these mics?
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2009, 06:26:03 PM »

Hank Alrich wrote on Fri, 13 November 2009 11:56

Someone serious enough to do it well probably doesn't have enough time!


That's probably true.

Hank Alrich wrote on Fri, 13 November 2009 11:56

Last week I got to play into a KM56, and sing into a KH mod'd U67, at Cedar Creek Recording here in Austin, with Fred Remmert engineering. Nice mics. <g>


Nice!

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"Where are the repair people in this country? Where have they gone? Currently, the state of microphone service availability in the US is an unmitigated disaster, especially in light of the fact that there has never been a boom in the history of recording mics like this."

-- Klaus Heyne

J. Mike Perkins

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Re: Can you hear the transformer in some of these mics?
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2010, 07:43:58 PM »

I also prefer the sound of my U77 over the 2 U87 mics that I own (original models from the 70's) or any U87 that I have ever used or heard. I also own a pair of KM74 mics and these sound as least as good as any KM84's that I have ever used.  The U77 and KM74 sound NOTHING like Neumann's modern TLM mics and would change a lot of people's opinions about that a transformerless mic can sound like if they ever had the pleasure of using one of these.  
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Jim Williams

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Re: Can you hear the transformer in some of these mics?
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2010, 10:34:20 AM »

Mike Cleaver wrote on Sat, 13 June 2009 19:21

Ditto.
Listen to the classic Neumann mics WITH transformers and the newer TLM (transformerless) models.
None has what Klaus calls the "sex appeal" of the originals.
Examples, TLM 49 and TLM 67.
There is no comparison.


That assumes the rest of the circuitry is identical, it is not.
The TLM series use surface mount passive parts including metal oxide resistors instead of metal film and monolythic ceramic capacitors instead of polystyrene film.

Apples to oranges.
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