R/E/P Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Shopping For Neumann KM84 (+ Comparisons to KM184)  (Read 41892 times)

kats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1694
Re: Shopping For Neumann KM84 (+ Comparisons to KM184)
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2009, 01:55:46 PM »

tuchel wrote on Thu, 02 April 2009 18:09

Tony - have you used the Beyer's to record drums, and if so, in what way?  Maybe hi hat, and how did that work for you?

Terry


I have used the MC130's as overhead mics and lately as a snare mic.  It sounded fine. I don't usually use SDC's as OH mic's on drums, but I really liked it on the snare. I like them on finger picked steel string a lot as well. As always I run my mics through Helios Type 69's and there is a certain midrange thing happening that seems to compliment the Beyer's.  


While it clearly does not sound like a KM84, I can see why people call it a decent replacement. In my experience, most modern SDC's have the bump at around 5k whereas the Beyer bumps at 10k. So it doesn't add much presence as opposed to "air", giving a more natural sounding response.
Logged
Tony K.
http://empirerecording.ca

Entertainment is a bore, communication is where it's at! - Brian Jones 1967

kats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1694
Re: Shopping For Neumann KM84 (+ Comparisons to KM184)
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2009, 02:07:02 PM »

J-Texas wrote on Thu, 02 April 2009 18:17

"B" all the way. "A" sounds very boomy and hollow.

DAMN. After I pressed "submit", I wanted to take it back, simply because I was helping to turn this thread into a "my personal taste" shootout thing. Sorry. It does sound to me like what I said, but maybe someone might be looking for that sound and doesn't discount the other mic.



How much do you want to bet that the Beyer was the mic "on top" of the Neumann. Smile
Logged
Tony K.
http://empirerecording.ca

Entertainment is a bore, communication is where it's at! - Brian Jones 1967

Klaus Heyne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3154
Re: Shopping For Neumann KM84 (+ Comparisons to KM184)
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2009, 03:33:08 PM »

Aside of the fact that we are steering quite a bit away from the thread-starter's question, I am still averse to these types of on-line comparison tests as referenced to the Gearslutz thread.

I am not so much arguing along the lines of "level matching to within 0.2dB" or similar precision comparisons which are labor intensive and require skills and expensive machinery.

A bit more disconcerting is the level of reliability of these instant peter meters totally lacking of peer review: Nobody who has chimed in here or on GS knows what mics the guy really used for his test. Or, just as bad, whether he may have inadvertently mixed up the labeling for sample A and sample B. To simply trust a total stranger without any ability to verify the results is nuts, or at least about as unscientific of an empirical test as can be imagined.

Then there are these issues to contemplate:

* Sample resolution. Through sample truncation and algorithms, MP3s have a tonality all their own. I would choose and eq mics when aiming for MP3 as final release format quite differently than when targeting hi-res digital formats or analog tape.

* Positioning. It ever only makes sense to positon two mics of the same kind in the same space when comparing their performance relative to one another.

When trying to select the best mic for the job I would never position mics of different kinds, brands, or models in the same spot.  And that's just not what a good engineer does! He will place any given mic in the (acoustically) most advantageous spot FOR THAT MIC, and will compare the suitability of different mics in that manner. A KM84, for example, may need a bit more space between sound source and diaphragm than brand x.

I'd rather trust a preponderance of engineers' opinions who have come to similar conclusions in real -life session than MP3 popularity contests like this one. (Maybe the  3:1 price ratio between the two mics featured in the 'test' will give us a clue?)
Logged
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com

Barry Hufker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8228
Re: Shopping For Neumann KM84 (+ Comparisons to KM184)
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2009, 03:50:38 PM »

Apart from being off topic, I see no harm to listening to these MP3s.  At worst they make me want to hear for myself one or the other of the microphones.  It is then that I decide which I like or which I want.  At most the comparison is interesting.  At worst the comparison is false. In either case I didn't purchase a microphone - I found something I may want to hear next.  Positioning doesn't matter, nor does sampling frequency/bit depth in this case.  I heard a sound I preferred and one I didn't.  Both were under the same circumstance.  And the quality I heard means I might want to listen to one mic some time in the future because someone found a placement I enjoyed.  I know what the mics are *capable* of sounding like.  Again, it is just today's entertainment and one more *speck* of something that *might* one day lead me to want to hear some microphone.



Logged

wwittman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7712
Re: Shopping For Neumann KM84 (+ Comparisons to KM184)
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2009, 04:53:43 PM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Thu, 02 April 2009 15:33

...
When trying to select the best mic for the job I would never position mics of different kinds, brands, or models in the same spot.  And that's just not what a good engineer does! He will place any given mic in the (acoustically) most advantageous spot FOR THAT MIC, and will compare the suitability of different mics in that manner. A KM84, for example, may need a bit more space between sound source and diaphragm than brand x. ...



that's a very smart point


In an effort to be "fair", many comparisons are rendered irrelevant.

it's not how people USE the mics in question.

Logged
William Wittman
Producer/Engineer
(Cyndi Lauper, Joan Osborne, The Fixx, The Outfield, Hooters...)

jerrybosun

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 125
Re: Shopping For Neumann KM84 (+ Comparisons to KM184)
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2009, 05:05:41 PM »

To be fair then test both mics at the "optimal" position of each mic.
Logged

kats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1694
Re: Shopping For Neumann KM84 (+ Comparisons to KM184)
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2009, 05:21:42 PM »

And then, you have to trust the ears and judgment of the person recording. It's a lose lose situation really.

Something to chew on really, but not much more than that.
Logged
Tony K.
http://empirerecording.ca

Entertainment is a bore, communication is where it's at! - Brian Jones 1967

Unwinder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 467
Re: Shopping For Neumann KM84 (+ Comparisons to KM184)
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2009, 11:09:31 PM »

Hmm. I'd say red flags would be more important in terms of the seller your dealing with. Obviously you don't want a mic that isn't too badly beat up, bent...or whatever.

Best thing to do on ebay i think is to check the seller's history, ask some good questions and make a decision. I bought an 84 off ebay...it had some chips in the paint...no case, etc.

It sounds fantastic, i LOVE it.



itsapleasure

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 187
Re: Shopping For Neumann KM84 (+ Comparisons to KM184)
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2009, 04:55:09 PM »

Wow! This thread went bizerko..

So true about the comparison files.  I hardly ever get any info from those things, esp when it pertains to mics.  

Seems like everyone's mics that sound "better" than vintage Neumanns these days...  
Still haven't found em.. and believe me, I've looked.  

thanks for the advice, fellers.  

Logged

Klaus Heyne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3154
Re: Shopping For Neumann KM84 (+ Comparisons to KM184)
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2009, 09:01:11 PM »

itsapleasure wrote on Fri, 03 April 2009 13:55

Wow! This thread went bizerko...

So, did you get what you need from it?
If not, let's revisit the original question:
Quote:

Aside from the obvious eBay risks, etc, what are some red flags to look for when shopping for these things?
Also, how important is it to keep them close in age/serial #?


The most crucial of all the components on a KMx is hard to inspect by the lay person: the capsule. An amp problem is always easily detected: an unusual amount of noise, a very low output or other stark tell-tale signs. (The amp is rarely if ever implicated in frequency anomalies, like attenuated high frequencies, harsh midrange or lack of bass.)
Yet, only disassembly of the capsule head (not recommended!) would give you clues as to the diaphragm's previous use/abuse.

What you then could theoretically do, but which is also tricky, is simply compare the candidate to another KM84 you borrow. The problem with that is that Neumann used several distinct sounding capsule generations on that model through the years. They are all acceptable in sound quality, but may make it hard to pair match.

Aside of the previously mentioned idea to get two mics that are close in serial umber and past use, the one advice which again emphasizes your involvement above that of anyone else's expertise is to listen. If the mic is emotionally attractive to your ears, it is right. If not, go to the next one, and so on, until you find the most appealing sounding sample.

KM84 are often all over the map, in terms of their sonic impression, and without any pin-point coordinates to go by, it is up to you an your ears to make the decision when you have found the ones that please.

Logged
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com

itsapleasure

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 187
Re: Shopping For Neumann KM84 (+ Comparisons to KM184)
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2009, 09:38:15 PM »

Thanks for the advice, Klaus.
I figured that there would be some differences in capsules, etc. but it doesn't seem to be a widely discussed subject.
I know of a couple (hundred?   Confused  ) studios closing, so I guess I'll start there.
Logged

Beat Counter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 21
Re: Shopping For Neumann KM84 (+ Comparisons to KM184)
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2009, 07:44:42 PM »

My perspective.

I received my 84 yesterday. Last night I set side by side (literally) my 184 and my "new" 84. I ran both through a Flamingo and set the gain structure so that both visually matched. If you know the Flamingo, you get my perspective. Ran both then into my Ghost (line in, eq bypassed). Kind of use it as a router. Then to a headphone send. Just a home studio for personal use.

No comparison. And no, I'm not just self "pumping sunshine" to justify my "buy". Played my 71 D-35. Much more definition on the bottom end. (bass player in the past)It sounds like somebody "scouped out" the 184. but hey, to each his own.

Klaus, the 84 seems heavier than the 184. Any reason or am I imagining this? Thanks

Scott
Logged

Jeff Stuart Saltzman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 44
Re: Shopping For Neumann KM84 (+ Comparisons to KM184)
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2009, 08:47:40 PM »

The 184 is probably much lighter because it lacks a transformer...
Logged
Jeff

tuchel

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 138
Re: Shopping For Neumann KM84 (+ Comparisons to KM184)
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2009, 12:05:30 PM »

Historically, how consistant is the sound from the year of the introduction of this mic and the final year of production? Components stay the same?  

Neumann strikes me as the kind of company, that in its glory days really worked to maintain the standard of quality.  True of this mic?

Terry
Logged

Klaus Heyne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3154
Re: Shopping For Neumann KM84 (+ Comparisons to KM184)
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2009, 01:33:42 PM »

True in regards to quality. Not true when you compare frequency response, mic output  and timbre consistency through the 20-odd years of existence of this wonderful mic.

If you have a 1970s KM84 and wish to match that with a new and recently acquired spare part KK84, it will sound quite a bit fuller today (some may say too bassy) in comparison. It's also got a higher capsule sensitivity now than it had before serial number 45000 or so (don't quote me on the precise dates of transition. It's certainly noticeable on all mics after 50000.)

A few weeks ago I needed to replace one KM84 of a pair that is used by a prominent artist as both drum overheads and acoustic guitar mics (in live concert applications, by the way! ) I had a hell of a time finding, then tuning, another KK84 capsule to the existing mic's capsule. It gets even harder to predict or match when you are dealing with well-worn capsules.  

As I wrote earlier, the mic amps are pretty easy to match and pair, regardless of series and age. The capsules, on the other hand, can stray widely. (And I don't even care to comment on the similar looking graphs in the owners' manuals that accompany these mics since the 1960s. Notice the tolerance of 4dB in the graphs throughout the mic's frequency range? That's almost entirely produced by the capsules, not the amps which typically stray less than 1 dB from one another.)
Logged
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up
 

Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.118 seconds with 17 queries.