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Author Topic: M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner?  (Read 43734 times)

Klaus Heyne

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M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner?
« on: January 09, 2009, 02:45:26 AM »

I have tested and retested in several set-ups a recent sample of Thiersch's new "Blue Line" (PVC) M7 Neumann capsule copy.

First, this is a wholly-Thiersch-manufactured capsule, i.e. not only does it use Thiersch's diaphragms but also his brass backplate which is patterned after the "Berlin M7", the type that has a particular pattern of concentric rings at the edge of the backplate, and which features other peculiarities.

This effort is a whole step closer to the 'real thing' than his previous attempts, and he is certainly closer than his competitors in achieving the goal to emulate the Neumann M7. Here we have a balanced frequency response in general, with just a tiny bit too little high frequency sheen, reasonably good side-to-side performance, and a pleasant timbre, void of shrillness, lisp, sibilance, or dried up bass.

Considering the trend, I am optimistic that he may succeed in the one area this capsule still lacks- the magic of an M7 to get behind the note, of having a level of resolution and speed of response, from the very high frequencies through the lower mids, that allows the voice or the music come to you, without too much listening effort. A "pearling off" effect, if you will, where the apparatus- the capsule- helps you along.

None too scientific, and probably an annoying description for the pocket protector types among acoustic engineers; but such is the quest for emotional satisfaction through the ear- a decent scientific explanation for the link between hearing, absorbing and the mechanics of getting there is still beyond our reach.

I have some ideas how to maybe overcome what may still be missing in Thiersch's M7 effort. To that end, I have started discussions with him; so let's toast to a successful M7 year!
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
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Stephen Andrew Bright

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Re: My New Year's Wish: A Thiersch M7 Breakthrough
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2009, 03:52:56 PM »

Based on my fondness for the sound of the M7 in my Wunder CM7 GT, I recently ordered Mr. Thiersch's M8 conversion, which is where he takes a stock M8 lollipop capsule and reskins it on both sides and makes it a switchable Cardioid / Fig. 8.

Used M8s can be found at about 1/2 the price of a used M7, and the converted M8 in cardioid sounds like his M7, according to Thiersch.

For me it seemed like an inexpensive way to get the M7 sound, which can then be used on a wide variety of mic bodies.

Stephen
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Stephen Andrew Bright
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Plush

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Re: My New Year's Wish: A Thiersch M7 Breakthrough
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2009, 05:03:22 PM »

Hello Klaus,

I don't want to be rude, but I can't quite understand your description of the desired sound. Can you state it in a different way. I am wanting to know your thoughts.

How do you suggest the M7 should sound?
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Hudson Fair
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J.J. Blair

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Re: My New Year's Wish: A Thiersch M7 Breakthrough
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2009, 06:34:37 PM »

Stephen, I'm skeptical about this M8 conversion claim.  The through holes are a completely different beast, and I'm not understanding how you can even mount a diaphragm on the rear.
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Stephen Andrew Bright

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Re: My New Year's Wish: A Thiersch M7 Breakthrough
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2009, 07:33:10 PM »

Hi JJ:

You are right -- he uses his own transducer:

http://www.thiersch-mic.de/en/estm_produkte_M8.html

So it is his M7 transducer in an M8 lollipop housing, now switchable from Cardioid / Fig. 8, or Cardioid / Omni.

Stephen
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kats

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Re: A Thiersch M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2009, 01:48:22 PM »

That's great news - keep us posted on developments!
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Tony K.
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Entertainment is a bore, communication is where it's at! - Brian Jones 1967

kats

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Re: M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner?
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2009, 12:27:22 PM »

Klaus, as an aside, how do you compare this capsule to a Geffell M7? And while on the subject, how do the Geffell M7's generally compare to Berlin M7's in your experience?

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Tony K.
http://empirerecording.ca

Entertainment is a bore, communication is where it's at! - Brian Jones 1967

compasspnt

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Re: M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2009, 12:36:31 PM »

I have a Theirsch M7 here now, comparing directly to a good Berlin M7.

Also have a very good MTG M7 from 1991, but it is mounted in a totally different head, and I probably won't have time to remount for apples to apples comparisons there.

The only conclusion I feel comfortable giving publicly so far is that both the Theirsch and the Berlin totally smoke the (very old) K47 from my U48 for that elusive "sexiness."
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2009, 01:01:16 AM »

Terry,
You know that comparing K47 to M7 is an iffy proposition (and you said so in your post.)

To answer the original question, I will give my current ranking of both PVC and Mylar M7 models, based on frequent tests and submissions by both Gefell and Thiersch:


A. PVC-State in 2009

1. Neumann Berlin and Neumann/Gefell, historic stock (when they still work)

2. Microtech Gefell, the ones made until 4-5 years ago

3. Thiersch, current

4. Thiersch, made ca. 1993/4

5. Microtech Gefell, current


B. Mylar/Polyester-State in 2009

1. Microtech Gefell, until 4-5 years ago

2. Tie: Microtech Gefell, current and Thiersch, current


Still my (slightly) favorite M7 capsule, which I use for all of my comparison tests, is a Microtech Gefell M7 POLYESTER! This was a one-off, with truly mind-blowing timbre, fullness, and clarity, Sheryl Crow's 'Soak Up The Sun' was done with a short body U47 with that capsule.

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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com

wwittman

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Re: M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner?
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2009, 12:57:29 AM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 01:01

If you want the sound of a true M7, there is only one way today to get it: Buy a Gefell PVC M7 as currently still manufactured (though with some low-end loss)...




so, Klaus, I take it you no longer feel this is true?



I have to say, after evangelising for them for so many years, I recently had some new UMT70s up and was very dissappointed with them.
I have to GUESS this is due to the new run of M7's

first they took out the transformers for no reason, and now this...




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William Wittman
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2009, 01:26:19 PM »

Yes, I am afraid this old statement of mine is no longer true.

The current Gefell M7 PVC capsules are not up to the excellent standard we used to get from the company. They are uniformly bass-shy, to the point of harshness, and any hint of their historic sex appeal and emotional attractiveness that mainly came from the robust lower mids (let alone frequency balance or side-to-side consistency) is gone.

Yet, I am always optimistic that, as long customers like you will ring their alarm bells, formerly glorious capsule manufacturers get on their feet again, make the changes the public demands, and become contenders once again.
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com

wwittman

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Re: M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner?
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2009, 08:09:22 PM »

I wish, but I doubt Gefell listens to ME. (if they only knew how MANY people I'd bet have bought Gefells over the last 10 years because of my big mouth...)

But you're exactly right.
The new mics had a thinness to them... what I'd call a lack of substance, or solidity.

I could get a mic for 1/4 that price if I was willing to settle for that quality

My UM70s with the transfomer sounds gloriously 3-D in comparison.




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William Wittman
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kats

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Re: M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2009, 02:15:53 PM »

So I tried one of these new "blue Line" capsules and compared it to a Mylar skinned M7 copy. My simple 15 minute impression was that it was less "hard" sounding while still maintaining the presence of the Mylar version. It seemed "smoother across the frequencies" but not any less detailed.

It is definitely an improvement IMO over the Mylar copies. But I will have a better overall opinion once I put it through a variety of recording situations over the next month.
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Tony K.
http://empirerecording.ca

Entertainment is a bore, communication is where it's at! - Brian Jones 1967

seanBfunky

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Re: M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2009, 04:17:34 PM »

Hi Klaus!

Would you be willing to comment specifically on the sonic difference between the (recent) Thiersch PVC and Thiersch polyester M7 copies?

Thanks!
Sean Broderick
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2009, 01:10:44 AM »

Sean,
Your timely inquiry saved me from starting a new thread. Thanks!

I am in the middle of working with Thiersch in identifying the characteristics which make a copy capsule different from the original- both as far as sound goes and the minute, mechanical, build-differences.

This is the fun part (for me) and the crux (for most capsule makers): How do you know when you have it right? Whose ears can you trust when you are the capsule builder? What if several of the "Golden Ears" you lent your new capsule to, in order to decide on what design to go for, contradict each other?  

Measurements certainly won't help the builder- we have discussed this ad infinitum here- the minute timbral differences that separate the wannabes from the jackpot are impossible to quantify and, if that was even possible, then to qualify!

There are exceptions, but the rule applies: the capsule builder must rely on a principal person to guide him, through listening tests, in the right direction. The lack of such a relationship in the current capsule making methodology pretty much explains the lack of any break-though towards a new, exciting, musical, frequency balanced, large diaphragm capsule. Hence the same old proven designs are being copied, and not even copied all that well.

As to your concrete question: The situation is quite dynamic with Thiersch at the moment. Since he has started up production of PVC capsules again, the new generation to my ears surpasses his Mylar work; so I'd go for that.

Please also see my rating of currently produced M7 copies, earlier in this thread. I hope to be updating this list some day soon with something that deserves more than just lukewarm endorsement.

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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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