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Author Topic: Purchasing a New vs. Vintage Microphone, Same Model  (Read 26829 times)

Nick Sevilla

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Purchasing a New vs. Vintage Microphone, Same Model
« on: January 08, 2009, 03:35:46 PM »

Hi Klaus and Forum members,

I have been interested in augmenting my mic collection with some more valuable microphones for some time now.

My question is the following:

What are some assets/drawbacks in buying a "vintage" original microphone, versus being able to buy a new version of it?

I currently am looking at an ELAM 251E, original issue, and also am looking at the new version of it, by Telefunken USA.

I am an audio engineer, so I do expect to use this microphone in selected situations. It will not be exclusively an "investment" purchase for me. I have used an original issue ELAM 251E in the past, and liked it, although I know each mic will sound different.

Thank you for your time,

Nick
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Purchasing a New vs. Vintage Microphone, Same Model
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2009, 04:41:58 PM »

You addressed me specifically, so I will start.

I believe the biggest misunderstanding and confusion by a potential buyer when comparing "original"  to "new version", as you describe it, is this: an assumption is made that both are related. The question is: how much or how little are they related beyond the obvious shape and features?

It is of course the goal of every cloner or copier to get as close as possible to the shapes, features, build quality and, most of importantly, sound, of the original. How close is a matter of each individual copier's intent, knowledge and willingness to spend, both in captal and life time.

To date exactly ONE reissue of a famous mic deserves full endorsement, because it was indeed built by the same company with mostly the same parts as the original: the U67. The fact that all of these reissues were sold within weeks of introduction at an (at the time) outrageous price proves the point that nothing succeeds as well as the original company making and using original parts in this endeavor. (UREI's LA 2A compressor, reissued in the 1970s, is another example where the reissue fetches the same [greatly appreciated] value as the original.)

It is my opinion that some of the cloners are getting better and better at making copies which may be compared to the originals one day with no embarrassment. A good barometer for their success is indeed resale value, as you mentioned. Research the subject and you may find that none of the copies, U67 excluded, have so far appreciated in value, compared to the original, on the secondary market.
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: Purchasing a New vs. Vintage Microphone, Same Model
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2009, 04:48:30 PM »

Thank you very much for your great insight.

I will do some more research, before doing any purchases.

Cheers,

Nick
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seedyunderbelly.com

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Re: Purchasing a New vs. Vintage Microphone, Same Model
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2009, 05:13:16 PM »

Hi Nick,

The Old mics have the Magic.  You may want to try to find a AKG C12 as it is in the family but certainly less than an Elam
Also I do not know if you tried U47 yet  but that is another Original worth the money and less than a 251

I would steer clear from re-issues  they never stack up

(I agree w/Klaus U67 is the only exception to this)

If you have the $ available Elam  but for the same $ you might be able to get a U47 AND a C12

Good luck!  -j

Eric H.

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Re: Purchasing a New vs. Vintage Microphone, Same Model
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2009, 05:44:11 PM »

As i'm in sensibly the same position as nick, i can tell that you have to ask yourself what is the purpose of this microphone.
If you need a mic that will probably work every session, that you will use intensively, i'd say go with a new mic.
Now, if you don't need that mic everyday, but maybe only on special, big deal, important project to you, and the rest of the time, you can make sure that the mic is well treated, i'd say find a old one.
The advantage of a new mic is that is quicker to get, that you have a full 1 or 2 years guarantee, that you are the first owner and can start on the right foot, that it is easier to find 2 mics alike etc...
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: Purchasing a New vs. Vintage Microphone, Same Model
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2009, 06:36:54 PM »

Hi seedyunderbelly,

Thanks for your insights.

The mic I buy will most likely be used occasionally. That said, my experience with "vintage" mics is varied, from wonderful ones, to terrible ones.

The reason I am posting is that I do have the money to invest in a few quality "vintage" microphones, and being as they do hold their value, it is slightly more attractive to me than a new reproduction. I won't end up throwing money at a microphone that will never get back to it's original value.

As Mr. Heyne pointed out, overall it is better to get the real thing, as most reproductions out there are still not close enough. He confirms this for me.

I was looking at an ELAM 251E, but I think the mic may not be authentic, as the seller is not allowing a third party expert to look at it. there are excuses also as to references to the buyer's credibility, and so I might not get this mic. I am not in a rush, nor "needing" to buy one soon, and I will not consider buying any mic without a certificate from a trusted expert, nor escrow.

I am just starting to look around. My ideal purchases will include an ELAM 251E , a Neumann or Telefunken U47, and perhaps one other microphone like an AKG C12.

The classics. The main reason for these is that I love their sound, having used various examples over the years, and also they do hold their value, so I look at it as both an investment, AND something that I can use and enjoy with my clients.

Over the next few weeks, I'll be poking and prodding, looking for some of these mics, and hopefully, I'll end up with some good examples that I am happy with.

Maybe this recession will be good for me, in that some people will be forced to sell off one or two from their collections. We'll see.

Cheers,

Nick
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: Purchasing a New vs. Vintage Microphone, Same Model
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2009, 12:09:30 PM »

Hi teleric,

Yes, I agree. I am waiting, researching, and seeing what this year will do to microphone prices.

In the end, I hope to end up with, hopefully ;

a. a microphone that holds its value well over time (20 - 30 years.)

b. a microphone I can use occasionally, on special clients who deserve the best.

Today I will speak to someone at Telefunken USA, about the ELAM 251E which I am looking at now.

I must say though, that I am becoming somewhat hesitant about this one... my gut tells me it's not a good decision. Even if it were totally authentic, I got weird vibes. I usually go with my first instincts, followed with research before doing any purchasing decisions. I like taking time to "cool off", so as to avoid a potential disaster.

Cheers, and thanks for your input.
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bob ebeling

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Re: Purchasing a New vs. Vintage Microphone, Same Model
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2009, 12:42:43 PM »

Are you worried at all about the sound?  It seems your criteria are investment and prestige only.  Those special clients will appreciate a lot more a guy who has a healthy functioning mic collection with 4 or 5 mics you can try to see which one sounds great on them, rather than a guy who dumped all his budget into some antique he's afraid to use on unspecial clients, gets it out of the safe once in a while and hopes that it sounds good or is still functioning.

U47s and C12s get clobbered and unused daily and hourly by a new young healthy elite class of badass mics that have amazing people standing firmly behind them ready to service.

DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE  
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Purchasing a New vs. Vintage Microphone, Same Model
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2009, 01:21:51 PM »

bob ebeling wrote on Fri, 09 January 2009 09:42

U47s and C12s get clobbered and unused daily and hourly by a new young healthy elite class of badass mics that have amazing people standing firmly behind them ready to service.

DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE  


Nonsense.  I have yet to see a situation where a properly functioning vintage mic has been "clobbered" by a newer mic.  Occasionally, there are aspects of a newer mic that make it more appropriate than an old one.  But the fact of the matter is that nothing touches an original U47 for that thing it does, and nothing touches an original 251 or C12 for that thing they do.  

For Nick, in terms of making a 251 your one great mic, I don't think that's a good idea.  The 251 is magical for some voices and some instruments, and really inappropriate for others.  I've said it over and over, if I had to own just a single mic to use in every instance, it's the M49.  
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: Purchasing a New vs. Vintage Microphone, Same Model
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2009, 01:22:55 PM »

Hi Bob,

Thank you for the reply.

I got a response from Telefunken USA, and they believe, based on my needs, that I should buy a new mic, and not risk the old one.

And no, I'm not into the 'hype'... I've actually used most of the classic vintage mics over the years, and know all about their good and bad aspects.

Cheers,

Nick
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: Purchasing a New vs. Vintage Microphone, Same Model
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2009, 01:27:42 PM »

Hi JJ,

Thank you for chiming in, I do respect your input quite a lot.

I agree, I should not make this mic my "one special one"...

In fact I tend not to make any mic the one special one.

I am very skeptical about the one I am looking at, but it is more about the way the seller is responding to my requests for assurances, more than anything else. If I don't feel good about it, it would not matter if the mic was indeed 'mint' and sounding amazing, I would still not buy it.

I think what I will do is audition several of the new models out there, and decide if that is better for me. So far 100% of the feedback I have gotten thus far is to not buy this microphone, unless I intend to put it away as an investment. This I can do with a gold bar... it does the same thing.

Thank you,

Nick
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Fig

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Re: Purchasing a New vs. Vintage Microphone, Same Model
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2009, 02:55:05 PM »

Nick Sevilla wrote on Fri, 09 January 2009 12:22

<snip>
response from Telefunken USA, and they believe, based on my needs, that I should buy a new mic, and not risk the old one.




Sure, why wouldn't they?

My small handful of use with a genuine 251 were, indeed, magical moments.  I have yet to have similar enjoyment from any other microphone since, vintage or contemporary.  Much of it certainly had to do with the performers and the room I was in at the time.

I have to agree with JJ, 251 won't always be a "best" choice - but will add that it is indeed "choice."  I'd rather rent one when needed, though - preferring U67s, 47, C12, in the locker for daily use (in addition to a bunch of SDCs and dynamics, ribbons and bows... )

I do look forward to being able to use a reissue 251 someday and try to compare across decades of acoustic memories.  I bet its pretty good, no?

Isn't this where someone mentions Bock or Peluso?

Nick, the only way to know is to try them and decide.  For that money, though, if it were mine and I wanted new mic(s) - Gefell(s).

Fig
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bob ebeling

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Re: Purchasing a New vs. Vintage Microphone, Same Model
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2009, 03:15:01 PM »

I love, use, and often prefer the 'big 4' (47/49/12/251) or 6 (67/48).  It is not nonsense that these mics are not always the best mic for a given voice.  It is not nonsense that that these mics get 'clobbered' everyday.  They do!  "Clobber-Put that dusty soft sounding thing back in the closet"
 
The mythology surrounding these mics is just that--fantasy.
Get in the real world and witness 30 plus other microphones being used and CHOSEN over the holy grails, everyday.  Witness all of hip-hop and country music, rock, r&b, pop, techno, metal, etc.., etc...
 
These mics became holy grails because in the 50's, 60's and 70's they were about the only logical choice.  Because everybody's favorite and influential records we're heavily cut using these mics, everybody references them as the holy grails.  There were few other options.
 
But we live in a beautiful time now in which hundreds of guys are out there creating options.  These options have already taken over, like it or not.  I'm not saying the holys aren't holy.  They are the skeleton and soul of the great microphone body.  

Viable alternatives that are clobbering the holy grail daily:

AKG414 (even new ones)
Soundelux/Bock 251
Brauner VMA
Brauner Valvet
Brauner VM1, VMX, etc..
Wunder Audio CM7, CM12
Peluso 2247 LE/SE
Peluso 251
Sony c800g
Telefunken USA 251 (various)
Shure ksm44
Neumann m149, even the tlm103!
Neumann u87
Gefell UM900, others
Groove Tubes MD1
Korby Convertible
Korby Kat
Manley Reference
Shure sm7
Shure sm57, sm58
Electrovoice re20
Sennheiser 441
RCA 44 77
AEA 44 77
Horch RM2J
Audio Technica 4030/4050/4060
Mojave MA200
etc.....
how bout other older ones (modded even)
Neumann um57
Neumann CMv3
RFT 7151
AKG c12vr

Anybody else want to add?

So to tell someone that their only option is to join the list of 1000's trying to search down usable examples of soon to be museum mics, like it or not, is narrow-minded and unfortunate.

I picture kids being told they can't make music until they get a u-47 going into a 1073 going into a blue-stripe 1176.  HUH?  Meanwhile the kid that doesn't believe in fairytales is in his bedroom recording an amazing new song with his $25 chinese mic he got at walmart.  When he finally gets to the recording studio, they probably won't be using a holy grail mic.  

Bring on the firestorm!
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: Purchasing a New vs. Vintage Microphone, Same Model
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2009, 03:35:06 PM »

Hi Bob,

My post is not meant for this type of discussion.

I'd appreciate it if you did not try to incite useless discussion.

Most everyone knows old and new mics, even the same model, do not sound the same.

It comes down to personal preference as to what to use on a particular recording.

Cheers,

Nick
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compasspnt

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Re: Purchasing a New vs. Vintage Microphone, Same Model
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2009, 03:57:22 PM »

Nick, if you want a 251, you should check out David Bock's.
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