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[Klaus Heyne]

Michael Hank wrote on Tue, 02 February 2010 06:34

Honestly I'd love to find a well working VF14m to get everything back original. But as everyone knows this requires money, time, maybe luck if you go the eBay route. It may not happen at all. (...) Also, I tend to power up the mic way more often than I used to when the thing still ran on VF14. I just didn't feel comfortable to use it for scratch tracks

I'd like to offer you and every other concerned parent of a U47 my perspective of acquiring a VF14 on the open market in the year 2010:

A studio owner recently asked me to look at an eBay auction for a VF14 (non-M) in Germany.

Seller: 100% positive feedback.
Identity of the seller: revealed in the auction description, including address and phone number.
Warranty on the tube: yes, money back until 1 week after receipt.
Communication: seller immediately e-mailed the studio owner who agreed to send me the tube for testing, if he won the auction.

When the tube got to me, a week after it was sold to the studio owner for his high bid of about $1K (!), I plugged it in, and noticed right away that it had a comparably  high (+6dB) noise floor. I notified the studio owner who immediately contacted the seller who immediately offered to take the tube back, but also agreed that I could continue the test a little bit longer. Result: the tube which probably had not been used for a while, or was previously used in an underheated circuit, regenerated itself fully, to a noise floor after a week of burn-in barely 1dB worse than the best VF14M.

Studio owner happy, seller happy, everyone happy.

P.S.: Never worry about powering up a VF14 tube too many times: the ramp-up speed is so gentle in U47/NG1 applications that I cannot think of a gentler way to start up any tube.

[Oliver Archut]

There is no question that a fully working VF14 is the better option than any replacements out there, either non mod or mod needed.

But, were do we get all those replacement VF14 from?

27000 made approx. 3500 U47 made, of the 27k made only 1/3 microphone grade, etc. etc.

So a VF14 for over $1K? That is in my world money wasted, last time I had a customer with a gone bad VF14 and I sourced him a
good working VF14 for warrantied price of $1500 he asked me if I am crazy.

Best regards,

[Klaus Heyne]

Oliver Archut wrote on Tue, 02 February 2010 11:57

So a VF14 for over $1K? That is in my world money wasted.

Why is that? Finding a well-working, thoroughly tested, original tube for $1k as the heart of a $10k+ mic seems like a bargain to me.

[Oliver Archut]

Hello Klaus,

the question is, is a 47 worth $10K or more?

They might be collectors items by now and the price is driven up artificial. We are now at $1K lets wait 5, 10, 20 years, do you really think that someone will pay $10k for a tube that belongs into $100ooo mic?

My only point is $1000 for a tube that can die any moment or life for 6 month, 2 years or maybe 10 years....


Best regards,

[Klaus Heyne]

Oliver, I feel differently about both of your arguments:

1. Yes, if a U47 will ever hit $100,000, I think, spending 1/10 of the mic's value will be a reasonable price for a VF14.

There are plenty of examples from other areas of collectibles, like from the guitar world, where the price of an essential component will usually rise commensurate with the price of the item itself: if you want to find a zebra PAF humbucker for a $100,000.- Les Paul Standard guitar from 1959, you will pay now several thousand dollars for it. That PAF used to be $100.- when I worked at Don Wehr's Music City in SF in 1975, and the going rate for a '59 Les Paul was around $2,000.-

2. Of course, any tube can bust at any moment. But, as long as a thorough evaluation of the VF14 preceded its purchase, its chance for long-term survival in a U47 is better than any other microphone-specific tube I know of.

Your overarching question of "is it worth it?" is daily answered by those who pay the current market prices for vintage mics, as they did in the past, when the prices were much lower.

Who or what determines the value of a tool? The user who agrees to the price, in negotiation with the seller. That, then and now, is the true value of the item, not what we wish it to be (so that more of us could afford it, so that these fine tools don't end up unused in bank vaults, etc.)

Prices for vintage mics are not artificially 'driven up' as far as I can see: nobody is forced to pay more than he thinks the item is worth, not even by those 'collectors' who will never use the microphone in a studio. Even they will not pay more than what the microphone will yield in the open market.

The relationship between low supply and high demand and the resulting (steadily higher) price of valuable recording tools does not even change when the equivalent sonic value or emotional attraction is offered in a currently-made microphone (the KHE is one mic that proves my point.)

[rodabod]

Oliver Archut wrote on Wed, 03 February 2010 00:05

do you really think that someone will pay $10k for a tube that belongs into $100ooo mic?

That wouldn't surprise me, and it'll be a similar situation to the tone-attorneys who spend silly money on vintage guitars.

I don't think exceptionally good mics can make the difference between a piece of recorded music being good or great. Plenty of exceptionally good records have been made with "average" studio equipment.

Regarding maintaining investment value, yeah, if the market still demands the mic, then fit a VF14 there if you are concerned about resale value. That makes sense.

[piedpiper]

Oliver Archut wrote on Tue, 02 February 2010 13:57

... last time I had a customer with a gone bad VF14 and I sourced him a good working VF14 for warrantied price of $1500 he asked me if I am crazy.

There will always be those who don't appreciate the context for pricing, especially in this time of disposable products, immediately available, for disposable prices.

Beautifully articulated response, Klaus. And of course, I'm just as frustrated as the next guy with the high prices.

I think the onus is on the likes of a number of the regular posters on this forum to come up with viable modern alternatives, as you are. Thank you for carrying the torch forward.

[jrmintz]

My wife is a violinist. We had the choice of getting her a decent fiddle, not a great one, or a house. The idea of a $100,000.00 microphone isn't unthinkable. It's all about your priorities.

[MagnetoSound]

And your bank balance.

[J.J. Blair]

As to the value of things, like tubes, here's a little education about collectibility:

1959 fender telecaster pots and original capacitor - $695.00

http://cgi.ebay.com/1959-fender-telecaster-pots-and-original -capacitor_W0QQitemZ390150976837QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuitar_Ac cessories?hash=item5ad6cf7545#ht_500wt_956

This is an example of the high end of market.  This stuff routinely goes for stupid amounts of money.

A bakelite switch tip for a '50s Les Paul?  $400, usually.  

A U47 without a VF14 is not a U47.  It's that simple.  A '58 Les Paul with Lindy Fralin pickups might be very nice, but it's no longer a real '58 Les Paul.  

When I had my Blue 47, people used it and never complained that it didn't sound like a 47.  They loved the sound of it.  But it was not a 47.  

The mentality of vintage gear is the same now as it is for vintage instruments or antiques.  They serve a function beyond their collectibility, but people want to get their money's worth, and expect to get at least their initial investment back, when they sell it.  

A Flying V with a Floyd Rose loses its value.  A Bijar carpet that has been shortened to fit the home of the previous owner loses its value.  A 47 with an EF14, or any other non original part, essential to the sound, is less valuable.  And people will pay to get that VF14, the same that they will pay for that Les Paul switch tip.  

We might think it's folly, but it's reality.  

[Oliver Archut]

Hello Klaus,

I agree with all your points if I were an investment counselor. I do understand your points about why the price is O.K. but have to question it at the same time.

Let me put it in a different perspective: if the price of replacement parts or even entire items rise a certain level, the honesty will get blurred by the value of the item.

You quoting the vintage guitar/instrument market very often as a reference, but I never saw a place where the basic idea of the emperors new clothes applies more.
It is not a question anymore if an equal product could be produced, the simple answer is, that it can not be done.
This answer is blurred and distorted by the insane prices those items comment.

Lets talk about tools. I agree with you that there is not a direct replacement for a VF14. There are several drop-in replacements that might come close or are even there (matter of opinion), but even if a 100% reissue would enter the market, the honesty would take  backseat (already has) and it would be never the same, because otherwise the so-called "original" would lose money!

In the end, no studio owner or engineer would care about a mod if there is a tube that would sound like a VF14.
Given the fact that the U47 is crossing over from a good recording tool to a collectors item, the basic honesty will be overlooked. That is the basic rule in investment!

It will be very interesting to see what happens within the next ten or 20 years with the current microphone crop.

Best regards,

[seedyunderbelly.com]

There are very few example of new microphones (or guitars) that would make me want to swap one out for a vintage example- I have not heard any small diaphragm mics that would make me want to lose my nickel KM mics.

There are new mics, as pointed out in the 'Lucas' thread which people seem to love. The KHE's  value has sky-rocketed (I have yet to hear one), and my experience with the new Bock 5 zero 7 has to be the most exciting new mic I never knew that I would hear- that mic is a steal.

All of these "finally to come" new mics that hang with the giants still have me no nearer to selling my vintage examples. I feel the old classics have their place only more secured by the new offerings. Some of the best new mics of today hang in there with some of the classics, but do not render them less useful.

If there would be a major upset in technology, like the development from crystal mics (telephone mics) to tube condensers, that might do to the classics what digital photograpghy did to film..  but we'll see.

Make some music with these mics for now !
Best Sounds,
j

[Stephen Andrew Bright]

I would MUCH rather have a pair of Wunder CM7GTs, AND a pair of KM54s than a single vintage U47 at the same price.

If I had a U47 I would sell it instantly. When you buy those kinds of things you are not just buying mics, you are buying something else entirely. Even Klaus has posted here that he would not own a U47 because it was worth the same as a car. (Don't recall that post. K.H.)

I love vintage gear, and I still go for gear that is selling for way less than the new version. My electric guitar of choice is the 1950s Gibson ES-225, which usually sells for less than a new one, sometimes 50% less.

I think Oliver, Wunder and Bock have proven that if you can still make mics that equal the vintage ones; certainly the U47 has been recreated at an acceptable level, but the KM5x series has no known peers- but then the vintage samples of those are still relatively inexpensive (about the same as a new KM140).

Wunder demoed their CM7 FET last week and it was pretty convincing to me that I would be silly to buy the vintage FET at 2x the price of the new Wunder.

Stephen

[Barry Hufker]

Stephen,

This will probably sound offensive and I don't mean it that way at all -- and it is not directed at you in particular.

I think it's silly for one person to tell another what's silly when it comes to living one's life, spending one's money etc.  You get one shot at life and if you want to spend a ton of money on something (and you have/can spend the money without endangering someone) then you should.  There may be better bargains, others might not do what you're doing, but O.K., do it if you want to.  That's the only way to live life -- follow your heart (but lead with your head).

Barry

[MagnetoSound]

Right on, Barry.