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Author Topic: External summing of DAW mixes  (Read 96897 times)

Mike P

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Re: External summing of DAW mixes
« Reply #60 on: October 09, 2008, 04:32:30 PM »

imdrecordings wrote on Thu, 09 October 2008 13:14

I heard the Neve wasn't Neveish at all.
It's a passive summer.
No real "Neve" components except for the logo, VUE's and paint job.



You are incorrect.

It's got two custom Carnhill transformers on the output buss.  You can run the unit clean (faders back) or push it for more of that "Neve" sound.  The unit is based on the 88R and I've had well respected engineers in my studio that have worked on the 88R tell me sounds very much like that console.

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Bill_Urick

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Re: External summing of DAW mixes
« Reply #61 on: October 09, 2008, 08:13:00 PM »

Vertigo wrote on Thu, 09 October 2008 16:24

Quote:

Yes, and you could send me those same tracks, and I could run them out of the same DAW, thru the same converters, at the same levels (yadda, yadda) into my console, and I bet they would be at least 'as different'. Assuming, of course, that we don't have the same console.


Absolutely, and if you were to perform the same experiment with the same tracks and 10 different analog consoles/summing boxes you would no doubt get a wide variety of "differences". But I also suspect that you would find a common element between all of the analog summing platforms versus their ITB equivalents.

That said, I think it would also be an interesting experiment to sum the same set of tracks via PT, Nuendo, Radar, etc; and a few different analog consoles and summing boxes. It would make for an interesting listen at the very least.

-Lance



Been done:

http://www.3daudioinc.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_ id/32?osCsid=3ea933883709edfbf768373deb6cb34a
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Fibes

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Re: External summing of DAW mixes
« Reply #62 on: October 09, 2008, 09:41:34 PM »

I personally have only found a measurable difference when whatever is summing in the analog realm is set up to use analog outboard.

Call me crazy but if I'm really not into the whole squeeze 16 channels into this mini mixer in some sort of stem methodology and like it mentality.

The best results IME come from using the DAW as a tape machine with automation and a real console with real outboard.

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Fibes
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compasspnt

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Re: External summing of DAW mixes
« Reply #63 on: October 10, 2008, 12:06:35 AM »

Fibes wrote on Thu, 09 October 2008 21:41

I personally have only found a measurable difference when whatever is summing in the analog realm is set up to use analog outboard.

Call me crazy but if I'm really not into the whole squeeze 16 channels into this mini mixer in some sort of stem methodology and like it mentality.

The best results IME come from using the DAW as a tape machine with automation and a real console with real outboard.



QFE
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Extreme Mixing

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Re: External summing of DAW mixes
« Reply #64 on: October 10, 2008, 12:38:26 AM »

Those of us who don't have that option, but still have real work to be done, will find a way to make things work out and mixes sound good, while others will contend that our work is inferior...

TEHO

Steve


organica

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Re: External summing of DAW mixes
« Reply #65 on: October 10, 2008, 12:39:04 AM »

no disputing the QFE but ....

WW ?

going *semi-ITB* (ⓒwwittman) seems appealing here .
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Revolution

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Re: External summing of DAW mixes
« Reply #66 on: October 10, 2008, 01:44:42 AM »

Of all the summing V ITB samples iv 'e heard I have always felt there was no point to buying a summing mixer. In fact I usually prefer the ITM mixes.

BUT

As I have accumulated a few hardware compressors which I use while mixing I decided to build a passive summing mixer with copper wire and a bunch of resistors and switches (very cheep to build). The only reason was because I thought I would be doing 1 less digital conversion when busing out to my compressors then back in and out again to a stereo compressor.

This first time using this I really didn't believe this would be a winner but you could have blown me down with a feather. As has been described earlier a couple of times things seem to have there own space and be more detailed.

The mic pre I am using is the Manley Dual Mono so it may be a possibility that the pre itself may be contributing largely to this but no matter what the reason I prefer my DIY passive mixer through the Manley.

MagnetoSound

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Re: External summing of DAW mixes
« Reply #67 on: October 10, 2008, 05:55:43 AM »

compasspnt wrote on Fri, 10 October 2008 05:06

Fibes wrote on Thu, 09 October 2008 21:41

I personally have only found a measurable difference when whatever is summing in the analog realm is set up to use analog outboard.

Call me crazy but if I'm really not into the whole squeeze 16 channels into this mini mixer in some sort of stem methodology and like it mentality.

The best results IME come from using the DAW as a tape machine with automation and a real console with real outboard.



QFE




Me too, and I don't believe it has anything to do with distortion, crosstalk, background noise or 'analog grit'.


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Tomas Danko

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Re: External summing of DAW mixes
« Reply #68 on: October 10, 2008, 07:57:14 AM »

MagnetoSound wrote on Fri, 10 October 2008 10:55

compasspnt wrote on Fri, 10 October 2008 05:06

Fibes wrote on Thu, 09 October 2008 21:41

I personally have only found a measurable difference when whatever is summing in the analog realm is set up to use analog outboard.

Call me crazy but if I'm really not into the whole squeeze 16 channels into this mini mixer in some sort of stem methodology and like it mentality.

The best results IME come from using the DAW as a tape machine with automation and a real console with real outboard.



QFE


Me too, and I don't believe it has anything to do with distortion, crosstalk, background noise or 'analog grit'.



I agree completely with this. The setup mentioned above will give you the best of two worlds (ie DAW non-linear recorder with editing capabilities + real outboard that outperforms plug-in equivalents) but even more so a completely different work flow and operative methodology.

I think that's what makes the hybrid-scenario the best one we have today. Intuitive work flow + outboard units overshadows any other issue sound-wise, in my highly personal opinion.

But once we exchange a full format console for some passive summing device along with one or two analog compressors, passing audio from the DAW through affordable digital converters or slightly better, I personally don't feel we have preserved that much from the hybrid-scenario stated above. And so, by using the analog outboard during tracking, perhaps staying ITB during mix down is not that bad compared to using a smaller summing box.

In other words, unless you've got a fully fledged DAW+analog console thing going, maybe ITB is good enough compared to some in-between setups.

I just don't buy into some mystical and previously undiscovered reason behind analog summing sounding better, or statements that digital summing is missing something and that analog is more accurate. Some proponents of analog summing doesn't want to think that they may prefer it because of certain anomalities, personally I have no problem what so ever to accept that sometimes I prefer a lesser technical specification because it sounds a great deal better to me.

FWIW, I consider digital summing to be more accurate at times but that's not where we should be looking for answers. Super clean math is clearly not what this is about.
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organica

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Re: External summing of DAW mixes
« Reply #69 on: October 10, 2008, 08:13:35 AM »

Bill Mueller wrote on Thu, 09 October 2008 08:12





Other question. Has anyone here ever made a mix OTB and then the same mix ITB or Bounce to Disc and then done a Sum comparison between them? I imagine that could be extremely informative. If the two mixes perfectly cancel, you're trippin'. If they are different, the difference is GOLD. The audio that is left over is what is BETTER! What a hugely valuable thing to know.


findings from such a test this would be quite relevant and informative on a couple of levels  . me thinks .



 
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organica

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Re: External summing of DAW mixes
« Reply #70 on: October 10, 2008, 08:21:25 AM »

Tomas Danko wrote on Fri, 10 October 2008 07:57

.....
FWIW, I consider digital summing to be more accurate at times but that's not where we should be looking for answers.

certainly this depends in great part upon the properties of the summing tools themselves ( if analog , what you're using for make-up gain ) as well as those of the recording ( classical opera , industrial rock , ect .)and ones technique . .
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Tomas Danko

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Re: External summing of DAW mixes
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2008, 08:29:54 AM »

groundhog wrote on Fri, 10 October 2008 13:21

Tomas Danko wrote on Fri, 10 October 2008 07:57

.....
FWIW, I consider digital summing to be more accurate at times but that's not where we should be looking for answers.

certainly this depends in great part upon the properties of the summing tools themselves ( if analog , what you're using for make-up gain ) as well as those of the recording ( classical opera , industrial rock , ect .)and ones technique . .



Granted, hence my use of the expression "at times". Also, just as you said regarding musical genres and technique it is down to the audio engineer and how hard he or she pushes the equipment be it digital or analog.
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stevieeastend

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Re: External summing of DAW mixes
« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2008, 08:36:11 AM »

I am coming more and more to the conclusion that it really depends on the quality of the playing/music itself and the way it´s been recorded.

I cannot save a not so good recording/performance/song ITB. Here, the analog console in combination with a DAW can do wonders.

On the other hand, if there´s a great song, great performance well recorded, it really doesn´t make a big difference to my ears if it´s been mixed ITB or OTB as I would listen to the music anyway rather than the way it sounds..

I still prefer mixing with my console... simply because it´s easier for me to get the music right. As everyting is so reduced nowaydays, arrangement-wise and melody-wise, you really have to have the tools to go in every possible direction, which can only be provided by DAW + console...

cheers
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trock

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Re: External summing of DAW mixes
« Reply #73 on: October 10, 2008, 08:42:46 AM »

I think, at least on the Yamaha/Steinberg front, that companies are now starting to roll out analog or digital/analog boards that are WRITTEN for a particular DAW. whoch to me means you don't have to spend hours trying to coordinate setups and have issues with products not working well together

this to me is the future, havin a hybrid approach based on the DAW's partnering with hareware vendors to combine the products

the Yamaha N12 i use with cubase and nuendo

the new allen and heath Zed16 i think it is and sonar

real analog boards with pre amps, comps, eq, verb etc that come wiht templates and one FW cable to hook to your pc to allow you inbound routing and then outbound mixing thru the boards

with the yamaha you can hook 2-3 of them together and get with 3, 24 mono and 6 stereo tracks perfectly aligned with cubase or nuendo in and out

this is one area not talked about here is how great it is to have products developed together so setup and maintenence is easy.

for my setup i can have say 2 N12's with just 2 FW cables and all the connectivity, templates and in and out's i need already writeen for me, and tweakable however i want

anyway, i dig this approach if for no other reason then i do believe the sound is better, it offloads a ton of CPU from plugs i would have used, its rock solid and set up for me, and you know it forces me to use my ears again. there is no gui for the mixer eq or comp etc so i have to LISTEN

and its fun
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Eik

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Re: External summing of DAW mixes
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2008, 08:57:24 AM »

Bill Mueller wrote on Thu, 09 October 2008 07:12



Has anyone ever done a double blind study of the ITB versus OTB analog summing? Would that not resolve the question? The majority of opinion here is in favor of OTB but there are some pretty heavy hitters out there who say it is all in your heads.





Didn't Digidesign provid a demo with examples of that a while ago?

As fare as I can remember, it was no differences to talk about.
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