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Author Topic: The glorious Blumlein  (Read 28603 times)

Schallfeldnebel

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Re: The glorious Blumlein
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2004, 02:33:38 PM »

Hi David

As you wrote to use less from the side mike, that's the possibility I was thinking of you have with the MS you don't have with the XY, unless you minimize the 90 degrees angle of the classical Blumlein.  

The reverb coming from the opposite direction of the XY Blumlein, comes in channel reversed, does it also in MS, since the back of the M 8 is out of phase changing the channel in the matrix?

If this is so, is there a mathematical proof that classical Blumlein XY is the same as Mid Side Blumlein?

Best,

Erik Sikkema  
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hollywood_steve

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Re: The glorious Blumlein
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2004, 03:27:03 PM »

or a different recording technique (not X/Y) must be used,

David, could you please explain why you think X/Y would be wrong in this situation?   I recently obtained a second Coles 4038 and I am now always on the lookout for a good opportunity to use Blumlein.  But no matter what else I was trying, I have always used XY stereo as my fallback stereo pattern.  Probably because I didn't have a good way to mount mics in an ORTF or NOS pattern.  The Shure A27M just made XY so easy and the results have ranged from OK to pretty good.  But I am curious to learn of your issues with the XY pattern?

Now that I have one of the AEA stereo bars, it is a lot easier to setup a NOS or ORTF array (although a couple of right angle XLR connectors also make things a lot easier - two cables can't occupy the same space very easily).

Most of my gigs are "rush jobs" where I am running hard to get set up by the start of the session.  I'm really looking forward to some slower gigs where I might actually have the time to compare an ORTF pair against an XY pair, that would be a real luxury.
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djui5

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Re: The glorious Blumlein
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2004, 03:10:57 AM »

Jan wrote on Mon, 14 June 2004 14:10



Image assistant (as ppl might not know it, it's great when comparing mic techniques): http://www.hauptmikrofon.de/ima2.htm
(requires java)






That thing is awesome....thanks for sharing!
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David Satz

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Re: The glorious Blumlein
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2004, 09:09:14 AM »

Hi, hollywood_steve--

Coincident recording methods have undeniable advantages--image stability and mono compatibility are the two biggies, and simplicity is a very good thing, too. But to get those goodies when the hall and/or the arrangement of performers is less than ideal, X/Y recording always forces you to give up something else that you want in the recording. If that "something else" is a decent overall balance among the instruments or voices without favoring the front/center performers too strongly, it's time to start making intelligent compromises with the recording method.

I was talking about one basic problem of recording a large ensemble that occupies a wide stage. In that situation, a pair of centrally-placed coincident microphones may be literally ten times closer to the players nearest the conductor's position than they are to the farthest players. This makes the front and center players seem louder and clearer than all the other players. The extent of this effect will depend on the actual distances involved and the characteristics of the hall. Listeners in the audience always hear some amount of this effect, too, so it isn't something that absolutely must be overcome completely. (That's fortunate, since there would be no practical way to do so.) Rather, it's a matter of degree--of not having too much of any one bad thing, so to speak.

If the microphones are moved closer to the ensemble, the contrast in clarity and loudness due to the differing pickup distances will increase, while if the mikes are moved farther back and/or up, it will all "even out" more. But varying the overall distance also affects two of the other primary factors that we have to care about: the balance of direct vs. reverberant sound being picked up and the stereo image width. No law of the universe guarantees us that the optimal distance for any of these three "matters of degree" will match the other two at all. The contrary is more often true, in my experience.

The worst case is that there are particular situations in which the microphones must be placed relatively close to an ensemble--the hall is too reverberant or too noisy; the character of the hall sound is not so pleasant; the program material requires extra clarity; you have no access to places in the hall from which to "fly" the microphones; your favorite brand of oxygen-free microphone cable is so expensive that you can only afford 18 inches of it. In those cases, spaced microphones (especially if they're relatively widely spaced--the style often favored in the U.S.) will give you some extra "wiggle room" to choose a miking distance without favoring the front and center performers quite as much as a central X/Y pair would do.

--best regards
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judah

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Re: The glorious Blumlein
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2004, 02:45:35 AM »

otek wrote on Sat, 12 June 2004 06:31

I have used the Blumlein configuration quite extensively for ambience miking, and I have usually been very pleased with the sound. It seems to give a very exact, three-dimensional representation of most ensembles, provided the room is good, and provided I keep plenty of distance to the walls in all directions (I am not sure if this is actually necessary, it's just the way it's sounded to me every time).

Now, I mostly go entirely by subjective opinion. I listen, and if I like it, I use it. Which has been the case with this technique.

But I would definitely be interested in hearing what the theoretical background to the Blumlein configuration is. I don't know how to explain this in correct technical terms, so bear with me here, but I have imagined that its precise nature and ability to pinpoint instruments in the stereo field comes from the fact that the pickup pattern of each figure-eight shares very little "common ground" with the other, and therefore the stereo image becomes clearer.

Am I full of crap here? Can someone explain it to me in a better way?


Hi,
a bit off but still in topic. If anyon eof you has some hours of free time to dedicato to reading, there's an very interesting book about Blumlein. He was a marvelous genius of his time and really was into something.
Here's the details:

The Inventor of Stereo: The Life and Works of Alan Dower Blumlein, by Robert Charles Alexander

"Alexander, a consultant studio engineer who works in radio, unearths the memory of Blumlein (1903-42), whom he considers one of Britain's most important inventors. He particularly describes his 1931 patent for a Binaural Recording System. Others of his 128 patents during his short life were for the principal electronic circuits critical for electronic television, and others that broke new ground in electronic and audio engineering. He died in a plane crash while working on secret radar research for World War II."

Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0240516281/qid =1097649827/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-3039984-5248006?v=glance&a mp;s=books

Happy reading.

R.
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Gunnar Hellquist

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Re: The glorious Blumlein
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2004, 03:37:46 AM »

Steve wrote:
>>Now that I have one of the AEA stereo bars, it is a lot easier to setup a NOS or ORTF array (although a couple of right angle XLR connectors also make things a lot easier - two cables can't occupy the same space very easily).

Hi Steve. Well-known problem to me. I tend to use a small standoff made from some odd bits and pieces to get one of the microphones an inch or so higher than the other. The back ends and the cables then does not interfer as much.

Schoeps has another solution on that problem in the UMS20. Note how the micholders bend in the "wrong" direction compared to other holders. This allows you have the the mics at different heights. (The best pic I found at a quick search is from a dealer, just to be clear, I have never had any dealings with them)
http://www.posthorn.com/S_ums20.html

Gunnar Hellquist
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davidl

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Re: The glorious Blumlein (a somewhat OT addendum)
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2004, 04:15:30 AM »

Hello David S

"The recording was made by the great team of Marc Aubort and Joanna Nickrenz"

I haven't seen Marc & Joanna since the original Nonesuch was destroyed in 1979 with the firing of Tracey by Elektra management. (I'd like to be really rude about the people who did it, but this isn't the right place!) Are Marc & Joanna still in business?

The Nickrenz who is making a stir nowadays is Joanna's daughter Erica, pianist of the Eroica Trio.

I still remember Marc & Joanna recording Nonesuch sessions in the Judson Church, lid off the piano, a pair of spaced mics overhead -- and subway rumbles frequently audible from beneath the church. Tracey usually provided a Baldwin, but Paul Jacobs got a Bosendorfer for his Debussy sessions.

Salutations, David Lewiston
The Lewiston Archive, Recordings & Documentation of the World's Traditional Music
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ted nightshade

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Re: The glorious Blumlein (a somewhat OT addendum)
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2004, 11:01:29 AM »

davidl wrote on Mon, 18 October 2004 01:15


I still remember Marc & Joanna recording Nonesuch sessions in the Judson Church, lid off the piano, a pair of spaced mics overhead -- and subway rumbles frequently audible from beneath the church. Tracey usually provided a Baldwin, but Paul Jacobs got a Bosendorfer for his Debussy sessions.

Salutations, David Lewiston
The Lewiston Archive, Recordings & Documentation of the World's Traditional Music



That's a Bosendorfer huh? On Images for Piano? I was listening to that after listening to Monk and Ellington and Alice Coltrane and saying, "man, what a beautiful American piano sound! How *percussive*!" Well I guess that old Bosendorfer was really different from the new ones I've heard. Spaced mics, eh? (attempt to remain topical)
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davidl

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Re: The glorious Blumlein (a somewhat OT addendum)
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2004, 02:56:54 PM »

Just did a web search and discovered that Joanna died in '02. Too many of the old Nonesuch family have now left us, first Paul, then Jan de Gaetani, Tracey, and Joanna.

Oh well...

David Lewiston
The Lewiston Archive, Recordings & Documentation of the World's Traditional Music
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Chris Cavell

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Re: The glorious Blumlein (a somewhat OT addendum)
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2004, 11:29:38 AM »

A good resource on stereo mic techniques, including blumlein and modifications to blumlein techniques: "Basic Stereo Microphone Perspectives--A Review" by Ron Streicher and Wes Dooley published in the Journal of the AES in 1985, vol. 33.

From the aes.org site:
Quote:

Volume 33 Number 7/8 pp. 548-556; July/August 1985
This paper is a review of the methods used for creating illusions in stereo, with common configurations utilizing two, three, and four microphones. It presents the placement and type of microphones used for each configuration, and discusses their basic characteristics, advantages, and disadvantages. All of the techniques discussed have produced satisfying results. The use of a particular technique will depend on circumstances; the source source, the recording environment, the desired effect, and the release format.
Authors:   Streicher, Ron; Dooley, Wes
E-lib Location: (CD aes4)   /jrnl7888/1985/8059.pdf

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ted nightshade

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Re: The glorious Blumlein (a somewhat OT addendum)
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2004, 11:52:09 AM »

Chris Cavell wrote on Wed, 20 October 2004 08:29

A good resource on stereo mic techniques, including blumlein and modifications to blumlein techniques: "Basic Stereo Microphone Perspectives--A Review" by Ron Streicher and Wes Dooley published in the Journal of the AES in 1985, vol. 33.




I have this and can recommend it, and especially the AES publication "Stereo Techniques- an Anthology" in which it appears. (hope I got that title right, it's very similar anyway).
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locosoundman

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Re: The glorious Blumlein
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2004, 12:11:17 PM »

hello

Great discussion, just wanted to add this:

I have a few T-Bars, but have found the Sabra-som one to be the most flexible in my arsenal (don't have $500 to spend on the Schoeps mount - wish I did).  But you often have to get creative with the mount you have to get the proper angle and spacing.  I actually mount the bar sideways angled at 90 degrees with the mics one over the other using the mic clip itself to get the proper angle.  Would be great if had had a picture to show - I don't know if this visual is clear or not.

I read one book when I first started out that really was helpful to me - Bruce and Jenny Barlett's "On-Location Recording Techniques."  I think they basically just reprinted the "Stereo Mic" book that they had, but the information was well-presented without getting overly technical and I found it to be a useful resource.  I love the AES journal, but I usually get the most out of it during my first-cup-of-morning-coffee read.

Best,
Rob
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Jørn Bonne

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Re: The glorious Blumlein
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2005, 04:48:33 AM »

Yannick Willox wrote on June 13, 2004:

However, this immediately exposes THE big drawback : one should play blumlein recordings on speakers that are spaced 90 degrees instead of 60 ! (a good blumlein recording on a normal speaker setup sounds great, if you space the speakers 90 degrees it sounds 'real')

How about modifying the Blumlein setup and use an inclusive angle of 60 degrees instead of 90? I've tried it recording steel string guitar from about a foot away. Seems to work allright with a rather narrow soundstage like that. Any comments on potential problems?

Thanks

J
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recordista

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Re: The glorious Blumlein
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2005, 04:59:44 PM »

Yannick Willox wrote on Sun, 13 June 2004 11:51

one should play blumlein recordings on speakers that are spaced 90 degrees instead of 60 ! (a good blumlein recording on a normal speaker setup sounds great, if you space the speakers 90 degrees it sounds 'real')


Try a pair of planar speakers at 90
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Kurt Albershardt
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Re: The glorious Blumlein
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2005, 05:05:22 PM »

hollywood_steve wrote on Sat, 09 October 2004 20:27

I have always used XY stereo as my fallback stereo pattern.  Probably because I didn't have a good way to mount mics in an ORTF or NOS pattern.  The Shure A27M just made XY so easy and the results have ranged from OK to pretty good.


I use my A27M for ORTF regularly.  Have you tried that?
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