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[,]

Hi William,

I've seen you mention in a few threads that the durations of notes are often wrong when a guitarist plays bass.  I'm hoping you can expand on that.  Do you just mean that guitarists are less likely to understand the importance of release time?  Or is a quarter note not exactly a quarter note on bass; i.e., are you saying that bassists should release a little early or a little late?  Can you give examples of good and bad playing in that regard?

Thanks

[wwittman]

I mean that guitar players tend to not think about giving full value to an 1/8, for example.

in GENERAL, guitar players playing bass tend to make all the notes shorter.
Some of that is technical (the part of the finger they fret with) but some of it is just the mindset.


Obviously anyone can play whole notes.
But in a busier pattern or one with syncopation, it becomes more obvious.

I always think McCartney is a great example.

You can always find people who know all the NOTES he played, but it's very difficult to actually play those notes with the same attack and durations and articulation that HE played them with.

In Paul's case, people often play the notes too LONG, not only too short... but either way.
What makes him sound like him is the length of the notes in a pattern.

[,]

McCartney's an interesting example, because I think of him as often playing in a pulsating, staccato style, as in Silly Love Songs, or this one:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=obFcsEtFIKA

But I think I can hear what you're saying.  In the video above you can hear the buzz of the frets as he releases each note, and that buzz falls right on the "and" beats.  

Thanks for your detailed reply, I really appreciate it.

[wwittman]

He doesn't make a big thing of it, but notice how he slightly releases the pressure of his fretting finger after each note.
That's how he's controlling the durations.

plus he's playing on the flat of his finger just under the tip, not ON the tips, like a guitar player.

[littlehat]

I'm not WW (obviously), but guitar players also take a while to figure out a note on the bass begins when you let go of the string...

[Silvertone]

Also the guitarist many times doesn't understand the importance of what Tony Levin would call "the good note".  That is the "note" you play that allows the drummer to play that great fill or the guitarist to shred that great riff.

Also playing in front of the drummer or just behind the drummer can create the feel that the song should have. Many people who aren't bass players don't get this. Playing perfectly in time doesn't necessarily apply in these circumstances.

Bottom line is bass playing is a "feel factor", in fact feel is more important than technical ability (that only became popular when Jaco came along). Before that everybody was trying to emulate James Jamerson and Bobby Babbit!

I also once read that a womans body resonates at 60 cycles... that's the reason they dig bass players and Harleys so much... we both have the ability to get them warm

[Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk]

Silvertone wrote on Sat, 26 July 2008 05:50

I also once read that a womans body resonates at 60 cycles... that's the reason they dig bass players and Harleys so much... we both have the ability to get them warm

Ahh..... more like strong fingers and good feel (was that for women, or the song.... hell I can't remember any more)

As a long time bassist, it is all about the feel.  It isn't the notes you play, but rather how they are played.  Get locked in with the drummer, push a little, pull a little.  Most guitarists that pinch hit on bass have two issues.  Too light of a touch, and a tendency to over play.  Even the Victor Wootens of the world still have an amazing ability to lock in with the drummer, staying in the pocket no matter what they are playing.

It isn't really an attack/release thing, it is more of a total timing to fit the piece thing.

[Barry Hufker]

I've never thought of myself as a "bass player", rather as someone who can play the bass.  After watching the McCartney link above I then watched a video where a fellow shows (and of course plays) the bass part for Hey Bulldog.

I now realize I can't "play the bass".  I play "at the bass".


I am now extremely depressed.  No joke.  I'll never be that good....

[astroshack]

wwittman wrote on Sat, 26 July 2008 13:01

He doesn't make a big thing of it, but notice how he slightly releases the pressure of his fretting finger after each note. That's how he's controlling the durations.

and it is actually not the correct way to do that, despite it being done by one of the planet's most instantly recognisable bass masters. The correct way to control sustain is by using the fingers doing the plucking (damping the string between plucks). This gives a much more elegant result, but results in less pulsation (depending on the skill of the player). No fret buzz or unintended modulation occurs if done "the correct way", but McCartney's method can give better results for some circumstances.

Most guitarists play bass with a plectrum. That in itself can be severely limiting if the song calls for true pizzicato.

Cheers,

Sean  

[littlehat]

Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk wrote on Sat, 26 July 2008 08:14

It isn't the notes you play, but rather how they are played.

Well we all agree on this.
I usually just play F#...

But with serious feel.

[mgod]

What a great video. That's the most fun I've had listening to him since his first solo album. I'd like to see one of these for "Baby, You're A Rich Man", in which he achieved true godhood. How he chooses to articulate each note is really the great thing about Paul. Geoff Emerick told me that when it was just the two of them in #2 late at night, overdubbing bass parts last, Paul would get bleeding fingers from working so hard to get each note to speak the way he wanted.

The tedious obsession with technically amazing playing began long before Pastorious. Stan Clarke had a big effect there some years earlier, when fusion became the thing for many.

This idea of the "Correct" way of stopping a note being to use the plucking hand is hooey - that's classical guitar technique, and exactly why guitar players can't play bass. Tell Larry Graham he's wrong, and pity any bassist who was led so astray by some guitar teacher. If we restricted ourselves to that, music would be so much poorer. The electric bass is less than 60 years old. How we play it IS the correct way to play it. Which is any way at all.

T. Levin is right as always, and its one of the amazing things to me, how when guitar players produce they often want the bassist to play the way THEY would, with lots of notes.

DS

[,]

My natural technique seems to be to stop the string with both hands, but not on a song like this one with so many fast rests.  As far as feel and not playing too many notes, that to me is just musicianship, and something a lot of people get wrong on every instrument.  Especially guitar players, and these days, singers.

[MDM,]

McCartney was maybe influenced by tuba players, I believe his dad played one?

http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=mxjEnzZK7T0

you can get good ideas from tuba bass players regarding note length.

[MDM,]

listen to the bass on this:

http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=niatkY_W7jU

[Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk]

Really depends on what you're playing as well with the whole muting thing.  Most of the time, left hand (neck) muting is the most efficient, however, right hand muting is beneficial, and has its own unique sonic signature.  As far as using a pick? SOmetimes it is necessary just to get that attack (punk, metal, hard rawk) or makes life easier when hammering along in 16ths. Then again, can get a really nifty rockabilly tone if need be as well.

Still, it is feel. What I really notice is when I grab a guitar, I tend to play it like I would bass.  Really doesn't work that well either (well, and everything is just smaller.  I feel so delicate playing 6 string!) as there is a completely different feel to the instrument itself, not to mention the notes being played.

Sir Paul has just a badass sense of timing. Always makes a great little pocket. Allen Woody was also great at it.  

No one ever mentions Carol Kaye.....