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Author Topic: Mini massive M7 and K47 test  (Read 22389 times)

kats

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Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2008, 04:09:00 pm »

Oh just checked out the acoustics - quite a difference between Gefell's PVC and Neumann's...

Was that a new Gefell PVC? It didn't seem to have the body.
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Tony K.
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Entertainment is a bore, communication is where it's at! - Brian Jones 1967

kats

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Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2008, 04:11:40 pm »

Martin Kantola wrote on Fri, 29 August 2008 02:23

March 2008. So impressed by what Dale is doing, if you guys haven't seen his website, check it out! As an example: http://www.10000cows.com/new_mic_photos.htm

Martin


Was Dales M7 lower in volume or was it really more veiled than the Berlin M7?

EDIT: I actually want to add something. When I bought a T-USA U47AE I had the same impression compared to our original M7 equipped mics). That is, it seemed a bit veiled. I asked them to send me a new capsule and it was dead on. So I think I'm trying to say that  these tests should be regarded specific to these individual capsules - they might not represent the average. Although,  Berlin M7's seem to be a lot closer to each other than what I'm hearing from re-skins and such.
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Tony K.
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Entertainment is a bore, communication is where it's at! - Brian Jones 1967

Martin Kantola

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Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2008, 04:15:01 pm »

Levels were matched with the help of the loudspeaker files. There are clear differences especially in the high frequency responses.

Martin
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Martin Kantola

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Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2008, 08:14:01 pm »

Over 500 views since posting the samples and only a couple of comments, please don't be so shy Smile Would be great to hear what you think about either the capsules or the test itself.

Martin
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2008, 01:02:57 am »

Martin,

I greatly appreciate the time and trouble you've gone to.  This is a wonderful exercise which I have passed on to my audio production students.

While my preferences changed depending upon the source (as one would expect), for the first guitar series, I found the Wagner acceptable -- good but a bit dark; the Thiersch PVC capsule was an absolute "no"; the Neumann capsule was fine; the Gefell capsule I felt to be a bit "steely" (hard to describe other than that).  I was surprised to find the Ulan capsule and Thiersch PE to be my first and second choices, respectively.  I'd never heard of Dale Ulan before this thread and now I must learn more.

For male vocals, things were a bit different with even the Thiersch PVC capsule being acceptable.  It will take more listening for me to come up with any real preference.

I haven't listened beyond that.

I think what you've done is excellent and I appreciate it very much.

Barry
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chlpark

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Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2008, 06:30:45 am »

Being mainly a classical and flamenco guitar player I started listening to the Gtrsoft files (fingerpicking-style acoustic guitar). Without a doubt, there was a capsule that stood above the rest throughout the listening test: The Neumann. For me it simply has a character of making you ‘being there’ that the others lack. I was specially impressed by the way it deals with the transients and how the different ways of attacking the strings are transmitted. As for the rest, my second and third choice would be the Wagner and the Thiersch PE. I agree with Barry about the Gefell being slightly 'metallic' (sorry if the comparison doesn't make sense). I didn't like the Thiersch PVC at all.

Lou Ximenez
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MDM,

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Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2008, 09:00:18 am »

I've just listened to the PVC capsules, as I was already familiar with PE, and have an M7 with PE which I want to change to PVC.

the Thiersch is gummy sounding..

the Neumann is the best

the Geffel sounds tight but the high frequencies are better defined than the thiersch..

the geffel surprised me because it also appears to have lower output.. the actual backplate may be different, or it may be the tensioning.

WHY does the Thiersch sound gummy to my ears, I wonder? is it the PVC which hasn't fully cured yet?

OTHER CONSIDERATION:

M7's sound different and are built differently from year to year, so I imagine that non-Neumann backplates would also be different.

Is the Thiersch M7 a re-skin or a new (copy) capsule??

My mid 50's PVC which was re-skinned by Geffel years ago sounds more like the neumann, but with more high mids.

is the neumann PVC a late-50's model?


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Martin Kantola

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Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2008, 04:06:11 pm »

MDM, wrote on Tue, 02 September 2008 14:00

Is the Thiersch M7 a re-skin or a new (copy) capsule??
is the neumann PVC a late-50's model?


Thanks for the comments guys!!!  Smile

The Thiersch PVC is a reskin (OLD Neumann backplate) and their PE is A new capsule (backplate built by Thiersch).

The original Neumann is very likely a late-50's, but need to check the serial to be sure.

Martin
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Arf! Mastering

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Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2008, 06:27:19 pm »

I'll chime in.  The Neumann has energy and liveliness that all the others lack to one degree or another.  I just received a pair of new Thiersch PVC M7s that I am about to mount into some old Gefell bayonet type heads.

Will report back - perhaps they will fare better.
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Martin Kantola

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Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2008, 08:25:31 pm »

Yes, it interesting how that old Neumann sounds, wondering what it sounded like as new?

Another thing to discuss is what I found when I tried a null test between the Thiersch PE and Wagner (using the loudspeaker files). Anybody else listened to that?

Martin
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Dale Ulan

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Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2008, 10:03:04 pm »

This is a reply to an earlier post of who this crazy microphone guy is that nobody has ever heard of. Hopefully what follows is in line with the spirit of this forum.

I started building microphone capsules pretty much as a hobby - it was a neat thing to do. I posted progress over at the prodigy-pro forum (mostly DIY'ers over there), and there was some interest in other people purchasing these capsules. So I made approximately 120 or 130 capsules over the period of around two years. They have some features quite different than Neumann capsules (they are easy to identify as not original - not the least of which is a lack of a serial number), and each batch had some improvement over the previous ones. The latest ones sound pretty good, but there is a lot of scatter in the sound. I don't think too many of them sounded bad - those I would have weeded out during testing. Most sounded 'ok' to 'that's nice', but I only recall two of the capsules that I said 'wow' to - they compared quite well to a PVC M7 that I have. I did not keep them, although I probably should have.

That Neumann M7 is sick (the dreaded cracking problem), but with just the right amount of condensation, it works, sounds great, then the mic shorts out after half a minute of beauty. That is the standard that I try to aim for, but I find it a hard to get there.

I'm not really set up to have them tuned 'just so', and I don't have a test chamber for them, I make them and see if they sound good on my voice and usually a guitar before I send them out. I also don't have a particularly good clean-room area, so the occasional capsule gets some dust trapped beneath the diaphragm. I replace those if I don't catch them during assembly or testing.

I still have a couple of capsules that I use as my main recording microphones.

My first capsules were manually machined, and took about six hours to do the machining. The latest machining program takes a total of ten minutes on the lathe, around fifteen minutes on the mill, about fifteen minutes of cleaning and deburring, and around fifteen minutes to put the diaphragm on.

I've also designed a single-sided capsule that is very similar, though not identical to the Sony C37 capsule. I like its sound, but it does require care in the noise level of the amplifier in the microphone body. I built probably about thirty or so of these. I built a bright version and a dark version.

I haven't been building any capsules for several months now, it really is a second job. My day job (designing electronic engine management systems) is getting quite crazy these days. Having two jobs can be a bit stressful. Lately I've been working on reverberation software on DSP chips, and doing some tech work on various mixing boards around town.
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Dale Ulan
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2008, 11:06:10 pm »

Dale,

I'm sorry I said I hadn't ever heard of you before.  Of course I have but I didn't put it together until I saw the 10,000 Cows under your name.  Then it came back to me.  I'm glad you wrote a bit more about yourself so in a few months when I forget this thread (welcome to old age - Alzheimers??) you can link me back to it so I can have the pleasure of getting to know you all over again.

I've read and enjoyed your posts many times.  Now I've heard one of your capsules.  I like the sound in the sample Martin provided (guitar is what I listened to)and congratulate you on a fine job.

My apologies.

Barry

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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2008, 01:52:48 am »

Dale Ulan wrote on Tue, 02 September 2008 19:03

This is a reply to an earlier post of who this crazy microphone guy is that nobody has ever heard of. Hopefully what follows is in line with the spirit of this forum.

I started building microphone capsules pretty much as a hobby - it was a neat thing to do. I posted progress over at the prodigy-pro forum (mostly DIY'ers over there), and there was some interest in other people purchasing these capsules. So I made approximately 120 or 130 capsules over the period of around two years. They have some features quite different than Neumann capsules (they are easy to identify as not original - not the least of which is a lack of a serial number), and each batch had some improvement over the previous ones. The latest ones sound pretty good, but there is a lot of scatter in the sound. I don't think too many of them sounded bad - those I would have weeded out during testing. Most sounded 'ok' to 'that's nice', but I only recall two of the capsules that I said 'wow' to - they compared quite well to a PVC M7 that I have. I did not keep them, although I probably should have.

That Neumann M7 is sick (the dreaded cracking problem), but with just the right amount of condensation, it works, sounds great, then the mic shorts out after half a minute of beauty. That is the standard that I try to aim for, but I find it a hard to get there.

I'm not really set up to have them tuned 'just so', and I don't have a test chamber for them, I make them and see if they sound good on my voice and usually a guitar before I send them out. I also don't have a particularly good clean-room area, so the occasional capsule gets some dust trapped beneath the diaphragm. I replace those if I don't catch them during assembly or testing.

I still have a couple of capsules that I use as my main recording microphones.

My first capsules were manually machined, and took about six hours to do the machining. The latest machining program takes a total of ten minutes on the lathe, around fifteen minutes on the mill, about fifteen minutes of cleaning and deburring, and around fifteen minutes to put the diaphragm on.

I've also designed a single-sided capsule that is very similar, though not identical to the Sony C37 capsule. I like its sound, but it does require care in the noise level of the amplifier in the microphone body. I built probably about thirty or so of these. I built a bright version and a dark version.

I haven't been building any capsules for several months now, it really is a second job. My day job (designing electronic engine management systems) is getting quite crazy these days. Having two jobs can be a bit stressful. Lately I've been working on reverberation software on DSP chips, and doing some tech work on various mixing boards around town.



I quoted this post in its entirety because I found its tone refreshing in its honesty ("I also don't have a particularly good clean-room area, so the occasional capsule gets some dust trapped beneath the diaphragm"), and its display of modesty yet enthusiasm.

I also appreciate it because it shows the perfect attitude when making capsules or other complicated items in a microphone; here, ego, shame and pretense don't get in the way of sharing or even admitting set backs, thereby inviting improvement. Keep at it, Dale!

(And my thanks also to Martin for this thread!)
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
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Martin Kantola

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Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2008, 07:39:37 am »

Thanks Dale and Klaus!

Here's a frequency plot of the other capsules compared to the original Neumann, using the loudspeaker files.


http://www.nordicaudiolabs.com/samples/M7compare.gif


Please note that the Gefell type capsule holder is not identical to the Neumann, which probably distorts the measurement somewhat.

Martin
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kats

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Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2008, 08:25:11 am »

Martin Kantola wrote on Wed, 03 September 2008 01:25

Yes, it interesting how that old Neumann sounds, wondering what it sounded like as new?

Martin


That's a good question. I've been told by various sources that as an M7 ages it tends to get brighter. Can this be confirmed?

Just FYI, the M7 we have here is also from the mid 50's and exhibits the same character as the one in your sample. Moreover, after picking through a half dozen Mylar skinned M7 copies, we found one that came as close as you can possibly get to matching our original. It indeed was  a few dB brighter at the 5k and 10k peaks than the rest of the copies.

On both counts though, we don't really have any idea what they should sound like in original condition - we just know that the character they currently exhibit is our preference.
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Tony K.
http://empirerecording.ca

Entertainment is a bore, communication is where it's at! - Brian Jones 1967
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