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[Martin Kantola]

Thought I'd do a little test with the following capsules on the same body and grille, and then share the sound files with you people:

- Neumann Berlin PVC M7
- Gefell PVC M7
- Thiersch rebuilt PVC M7
- Thiersch built PE M7
- Dale Ulan built PE M7
- Wagner rebuilt PE M7
- Thiersch rebuilt K47
- Neumann K47

Please let me know if you have any suggestions for the test. Any ideas welcome.

Martin

[Markus Sauschlager]

I usually start a mic comparison by speaking into or/and playing acoustic guitar through the mic while monitoring through headphones. Almost always those first impressions remain valid.
However, I never trust myself initially as I fear that certain expectations could possibly bias my findings. So I record music played back through a speaker, maintaining always the same capsule position. For that test I found it very revealing to use music of many different styles and instrumentation (only high quality recordings of course).

After matching levels and exactly aligning the takes I can really A/B them. I found that very helpful to objectively compare how different frequency ranges and transients are processed as I always hear the identical sound source through each mic. Although recording a speaker really is a compromise, this method usually gives me a quite good idea about the real world behaviour of a mic.

I can't wait to hear the results!

Markus

[Arf! Mastering]

In any test, repeatability is certainly important. (But) using a speaker as a source can be flawed in that that coloration of the speaker will work for or against the coloration in the mic.  
Custom drivers are used as calibration sources in mic testing but, IMO, are not as valuable in making subjective judgements.  

... With all the variables that surround mic testing - bodies, capsules, positioning, performance differences, it seems that mic evaluation is more an art than a science.

[Martin Kantola]

Almost ready for the test, received a CD with nice live jazz from Sweden, sent by Schallfeldwebel, thanks! Also found a way to mount an acoustic guitar in a fixed position:
It's a wall stand from K&M. Will not be very comfortable to play...

Martin

[Martin Kantola]

Sorry for the long delay guys, but I'm finally about to get this test done. Have now prepared six original Neumann U47 heads with the six different M7 capsules mentioned. Decided to leave out the K47s from this round, because they are so different anyway, and also I did run out of available U47 heads...

Got the guitar stand/holder too, so next is matching the level differences. No point in trying to get the guitar in exactly the same spot if the levels are not matched.

Have also the speaker setup with the CD I got in the mail, and trying to figure out how I could get a bit of real human voice into the equation too.

Another question still bugging me is how well this will work with the guitar as the main source and recorded files. Found out in another test that mp3s are out of the question, comparing a cheap $2 electret mike to a trusty $2000 DPA 4006...

Sorry for taking so much time for preparations and thoughts, but it's pointless if it doesn't reveal anything useful in the end.
Martin

All set now as you can see. The guitar stays in place!

Martin

[Martin Kantola]

Klaus, I can't help feeling you threw out the baby with the bathwater while radically cleaning up this thread. IMHO, there were a lot of useful suggestions and helpful points from people in preparation for the test. And what's the rush anyway?

Martin  

[Klaus Heyne]

Martin,
My main job in running this forum is to provide information and opportunities for inquiry on a level that a working professional can make time for.

Until I stepped in, we had in this thread four pages of posts but still haven't had a chance to hearing your tests.

Your idea of comparing many versions of the same type of capsule is wonderful.  But I let you know repeatedly that I thought we had digested enough of the preliminaries and that it was time for you to share the results.

I have no doubt that the now condensed version of the preliminaries will be appreciated when someone reads this thread in a year or two. Now we have plenty of space to discuss the actual test results.  I promise to let the exchanges flow, once you finally get around to posting sound files.

Best regards,

[Martin Kantola]

http://www.panphonic.com/M7/

has the first samples, recorded yesterday. All in 24bit/44.1kHz. Kept them short for easy download. Do you guys want to do some educated guessing first or should I post the details of each capsule used right away?

As I had hoped, the loudspeaker test proved useful for matching the levels by the nulling method (one sample polarity inverted). Listening to the results of nulling is also interesting, because it directly corresponds to the differences.

Martin

[matti]

Thanks Martin!
Actually I would like to know the details now if its ok with others?

Best

Matti

[seedyunderbelly.com]

+1 Whenever you are ready!

[Martin Kantola]

OK, try reloading/refreshing the page now. You should be able to click to reveal the details.

Martin

[matti]

Thanks again, this was really interesting...
Last time I was in a studio with U 48 s they where out for
service, so I coudnt compare to mine

Matti

[rodabod]

That's great, Martin.

I'll hold back any comments until people have had a chance to listen blind.

May I ask what year/month you bought your Dale M7? Just wondering if it is an earlier or later revision.

Cheers,

Roddy

[Martin Kantola]

March 2008. So impressed by what Dale is doing, if you guys haven't seen his website, check it out! As an example: http://www.10000cows.com/new_mic_photos.htm

Martin

[kats]

I only listened to the male voice and thought that capsule 3 stood shoulders above the others - a little more presence that added a bit more excitement. I'm sure the difference would be more than slight if I was there.

[kats]

Oh just checked out the acoustics - quite a difference between Gefell's PVC and Neumann's...

Was that a new Gefell PVC? It didn't seem to have the body.

[kats]

Martin Kantola wrote on Fri, 29 August 2008 02:23

March 2008. So impressed by what Dale is doing, if you guys haven't seen his website, check it out! As an example: http://www.10000cows.com/new_mic_photos.htm Martin

Was Dales M7 lower in volume or was it really more veiled than the Berlin M7?

EDIT: I actually want to add something. When I bought a T-USA U47AE I had the same impression compared to our original M7 equipped mics). That is, it seemed a bit veiled. I asked them to send me a new capsule and it was dead on. So I think I'm trying to say that  these tests should be regarded specific to these individual capsules - they might not represent the average. Although,  Berlin M7's seem to be a lot closer to each other than what I'm hearing from re-skins and such.

[Martin Kantola]

Levels were matched with the help of the loudspeaker files. There are clear differences especially in the high frequency responses.

Martin

[Martin Kantola]

Over 500 views since posting the samples and only a couple of comments, please don't be so shy Would be great to hear what you think about either the capsules or the test itself.

Martin

[Barry Hufker]

Martin,

I greatly appreciate the time and trouble you've gone to.  This is a wonderful exercise which I have passed on to my audio production students.

While my preferences changed depending upon the source (as one would expect), for the first guitar series, I found the Wagner acceptable -- good but a bit dark; the Thiersch PVC capsule was an absolute "no"; the Neumann capsule was fine; the Gefell capsule I felt to be a bit "steely" (hard to describe other than that).  I was surprised to find the Ulan capsule and Thiersch PE to be my first and second choices, respectively.  I'd never heard of Dale Ulan before this thread and now I must learn more.

For male vocals, things were a bit different with even the Thiersch PVC capsule being acceptable.  It will take more listening for me to come up with any real preference.

I haven't listened beyond that.

I think what you've done is excellent and I appreciate it very much.

Barry

[chlpark]

Being mainly a classical and flamenco guitar player I started listening to the Gtrsoft files (fingerpicking-style acoustic guitar). Without a doubt, there was a capsule that stood above the rest throughout the listening test: The Neumann. For me it simply has a character of making you ‘being there’ that the others lack. I was specially impressed by the way it deals with the transients and how the different ways of attacking the strings are transmitted. As for the rest, my second and third choice would be the Wagner and the Thiersch PE. I agree with Barry about the Gefell being slightly 'metallic' (sorry if the comparison doesn't make sense). I didn't like the Thiersch PVC at all.

Lou Ximenez

[MDM,]

I've just listened to the PVC capsules, as I was already familiar with PE, and have an M7 with PE which I want to change to PVC.

the Thiersch is gummy sounding..

the Neumann is the best

the Geffel sounds tight but the high frequencies are better defined than the thiersch..

the geffel surprised me because it also appears to have lower output.. the actual backplate may be different, or it may be the tensioning.

WHY does the Thiersch sound gummy to my ears, I wonder? is it the PVC which hasn't fully cured yet?

OTHER CONSIDERATION:

M7's sound different and are built differently from year to year, so I imagine that non-Neumann backplates would also be different.

Is the Thiersch M7 a re-skin or a new (copy) capsule??

My mid 50's PVC which was re-skinned by Geffel years ago sounds more like the neumann, but with more high mids.

is the neumann PVC a late-50's model?

[Martin Kantola]

MDM, wrote on Tue, 02 September 2008 14:00

Is the Thiersch M7 a re-skin or a new (copy) capsule?? is the neumann PVC a late-50's model?

Thanks for the comments guys!!!  

The Thiersch PVC is a reskin (OLD Neumann backplate) and their PE is A new capsule (backplate built by Thiersch).

The original Neumann is very likely a late-50's, but need to check the serial to be sure.

Martin

[Arf! Mastering]

I'll chime in.  The Neumann has energy and liveliness that all the others lack to one degree or another.  I just received a pair of new Thiersch PVC M7s that I am about to mount into some old Gefell bayonet type heads.

Will report back - perhaps they will fare better.

[Martin Kantola]

Yes, it interesting how that old Neumann sounds, wondering what it sounded like as new?

Another thing to discuss is what I found when I tried a null test between the Thiersch PE and Wagner (using the loudspeaker files). Anybody else listened to that?

Martin

[Dale Ulan]

This is a reply to an earlier post of who this crazy microphone guy is that nobody has ever heard of. Hopefully what follows is in line with the spirit of this forum.

I started building microphone capsules pretty much as a hobby - it was a neat thing to do. I posted progress over at the prodigy-pro forum (mostly DIY'ers over there), and there was some interest in other people purchasing these capsules. So I made approximately 120 or 130 capsules over the period of around two years. They have some features quite different than Neumann capsules (they are easy to identify as not original - not the least of which is a lack of a serial number), and each batch had some improvement over the previous ones. The latest ones sound pretty good, but there is a lot of scatter in the sound. I don't think too many of them sounded bad - those I would have weeded out during testing. Most sounded 'ok' to 'that's nice', but I only recall two of the capsules that I said 'wow' to - they compared quite well to a PVC M7 that I have. I did not keep them, although I probably should have.

That Neumann M7 is sick (the dreaded cracking problem), but with just the right amount of condensation, it works, sounds great, then the mic shorts out after half a minute of beauty. That is the standard that I try to aim for, but I find it a hard to get there.

I'm not really set up to have them tuned 'just so', and I don't have a test chamber for them, I make them and see if they sound good on my voice and usually a guitar before I send them out. I also don't have a particularly good clean-room area, so the occasional capsule gets some dust trapped beneath the diaphragm. I replace those if I don't catch them during assembly or testing.

I still have a couple of capsules that I use as my main recording microphones.

My first capsules were manually machined, and took about six hours to do the machining. The latest machining program takes a total of ten minutes on the lathe, around fifteen minutes on the mill, about fifteen minutes of cleaning and deburring, and around fifteen minutes to put the diaphragm on.

I've also designed a single-sided capsule that is very similar, though not identical to the Sony C37 capsule. I like its sound, but it does require care in the noise level of the amplifier in the microphone body. I built probably about thirty or so of these. I built a bright version and a dark version.

I haven't been building any capsules for several months now, it really is a second job. My day job (designing electronic engine management systems) is getting quite crazy these days. Having two jobs can be a bit stressful. Lately I've been working on reverberation software on DSP chips, and doing some tech work on various mixing boards around town.

[Barry Hufker]

Dale,

I'm sorry I said I hadn't ever heard of you before.  Of course I have but I didn't put it together until I saw the 10,000 Cows under your name.  Then it came back to me.  I'm glad you wrote a bit more about yourself so in a few months when I forget this thread (welcome to old age - Alzheimers??) you can link me back to it so I can have the pleasure of getting to know you all over again.

I've read and enjoyed your posts many times.  Now I've heard one of your capsules.  I like the sound in the sample Martin provided (guitar is what I listened to)and congratulate you on a fine job.

My apologies.

Barry

[Klaus Heyne]

Dale Ulan wrote on Tue, 02 September 2008 19:03

This is a reply to an earlier post of who this crazy microphone guy is that nobody has ever heard of. Hopefully what follows is in line with the spirit of this forum. I started building microphone capsules pretty much as a hobby - it was a neat thing to do. I posted progress over at the prodigy-pro forum (mostly DIY'ers over there), and there was some interest in other people purchasing these capsules. So I made approximately 120 or 130 capsules over the period of around two years. They have some features quite different than Neumann capsules (they are easy to identify as not original - not the least of which is a lack of a serial number), and each batch had some improvement over the previous ones. The latest ones sound pretty good, but there is a lot of scatter in the sound. I don't think too many of them sounded bad - those I would have weeded out during testing. Most sounded 'ok' to 'that's nice', but I only recall two of the capsules that I said 'wow' to - they compared quite well to a PVC M7 that I have. I did not keep them, although I probably should have. That Neumann M7 is sick (the dreaded cracking problem), but with just the right amount of condensation, it works, sounds great, then the mic shorts out after half a minute of beauty. That is the standard that I try to aim for, but I find it a hard to get there. I'm not really set up to have them tuned 'just so', and I don't have a test chamber for them, I make them and see if they sound good on my voice and usually a guitar before I send them out. I also don't have a particularly good clean-room area, so the occasional capsule gets some dust trapped beneath the diaphragm. I replace those if I don't catch them during assembly or testing. I still have a couple of capsules that I use as my main recording microphones. My first capsules were manually machined, and took about six hours to do the machining. The latest machining program takes a total of ten minutes on the lathe, around fifteen minutes on the mill, about fifteen minutes of cleaning and deburring, and around fifteen minutes to put the diaphragm on. I've also designed a single-sided capsule that is very similar, though not identical to the Sony C37 capsule. I like its sound, but it does require care in the noise level of the amplifier in the microphone body. I built probably about thirty or so of these. I built a bright version and a dark version. I haven't been building any capsules for several months now, it really is a second job. My day job (designing electronic engine management systems) is getting quite crazy these days. Having two jobs can be a bit stressful. Lately I've been working on reverberation software on DSP chips, and doing some tech work on various mixing boards around town.

I quoted this post in its entirety because I found its tone refreshing in its honesty ("I also don't have a particularly good clean-room area, so the occasional capsule gets some dust trapped beneath the diaphragm"), and its display of modesty yet enthusiasm.

I also appreciate it because it shows the perfect attitude when making capsules or other complicated items in a microphone; here, ego, shame and pretense don't get in the way of sharing or even admitting set backs, thereby inviting improvement. Keep at it, Dale!

(And my thanks also to Martin for this thread!)

[Martin Kantola]

Thanks Dale and Klaus!

Here's a frequency plot of the other capsules compared to the original Neumann, using the loudspeaker files.

Please note that the Gefell type capsule holder is not identical to the Neumann, which probably distorts the measurement somewhat.

Martin

[kats]

Martin Kantola wrote on Wed, 03 September 2008 01:25

Yes, it interesting how that old Neumann sounds, wondering what it sounded like as new? Martin

That's a good question. I've been told by various sources that as an M7 ages it tends to get brighter. Can this be confirmed?

Just FYI, the M7 we have here is also from the mid 50's and exhibits the same character as the one in your sample. Moreover, after picking through a half dozen Mylar skinned M7 copies, we found one that came as close as you can possibly get to matching our original. It indeed was  a few dB brighter at the 5k and 10k peaks than the rest of the copies.

On both counts though, we don't really have any idea what they should sound like in original condition - we just know that the character they currently exhibit is our preference.

[MDM,]

I'm curious to know about the PVC, perhaps Geffel makes it's own because they are looking for certain mechanical characteristics.

I wonder if the thiersch just needs to age.. or not.

[rodabod]

My comments for the male vocal are that the Thiersch PVC and Neumann PVC were preferable basically because they had a fuller sound and were relatively softer to my ears. I found the Gefell PVC to sound "small" and thinner than the rest and did not like it so much.

For the soft acoustic guitar I found Dale's M7 and the Neumann PVC preferable which had a softness which I thought worked better compared to the rest.

I think Dale has done a very good job.

[matti]

Martin, are these curves measured with or without the mic's grill?

[Martin Kantola]

Yes, these measurements are done using the "loudspeaker" files, with a complete microphone and swapping heads containing different capsules.

Please note that what the curves attempt to show is the difference of each of these capsules compared to the original Neumann. So, any effect of the grille should not show up at all, because all capsules had a Neumann grille (please see the photos). The only exception might be the Gefell which has a different capsule holder as noted.

Martin

[Bob Schwenkler]

So I took a little time and listened through all the files. I created an excel sheet to chart my responses.

I rated from 1-6 for my preference with each individual capsule for each file. 1 is highest rating and 6 is lowest rating. I tallied up the total points for each capsule at the bottom of the chart, so a lower number will mean it scored better.

As an extra comment, I have to say that I really liked the character of capsule 2 but it was consistently dark sounding. It would be really great to have around as a character mic, but not as a go-to mic.

I actually still haven't looked at the answers to which mic is which. I think I'll do that now!

This is a great resource for me as I'm planning on building a pair of LD mics in the future and an M7 based mic is toward the top of my list. Thanks for the comparison Martin!

[Bob Schwenkler]

Damn! The one that came out as far better scoring is the Neumann PVC. Trying to find two of these in good condition seems like it could be very difficult!

I am also surprised that the Gefell PVC came out ranking so poorly!

[Bob Schwenkler]

Looking at the frequency response charts it seems like I can see that the Gefell PVC and the Ulan have some funniness in the 4-5k and 500-600 hz range, respectively. These mics I consistently picked out as having some phasiness or resonance in an unpleasing way.

It looks like the Neumann K47 didn't make it into the test which is a bummer for me. It's a currently available capsule and is well regarded. How does this capsule compare sonically to the M7?

[Martin Kantola]

That's fantastic work Bob! Thank you for sharing.

I'd be happy to do a new test with a K47 included at some point.  Which M7:s should I use to compare with? Any other ideas?

Martin

[Klaus Heyne]

Martin Kantola wrote on Mon, 10 November 2008 19:29

I'd be happy to do a new test with a K47 included at some point.  Which M7 should I use to compare with? Any other ideas?

Yes. Next week I will report on a new M7 PVC capsule of which I received a test sample and which impressed me as a possible path forward from historic models.

[Bob Schwenkler]

Martin Kantola wrote on Mon, 10 November 2008 19:29

That's fantastic work Bob! Thank you for sharing. I'd be happy to do a new test with a K47 included at some point.  Which M7:s should I use to compare with? Any other ideas? Martin

It's tough to say. My first response would be to hear it against the Neumann PVC. But (for my own personal agenda) I wonder if it would be more practial to hear it against some of your currently available models.

Thinking about it more, I'd prefer to hear the Neumann PVC. Second choice would be the Wagner PE as it came in a tie for second place.

Do Thiersch and Wagner sell their capsules individually? I wonder how indicative this particular Thiersch PVC is of his general output of this model. I also wonder if it could be tuned a bit brighter during production?

[MDM,]

Klaus Heyne wrote on Tue, 11 November 2008 02:56

Martin Kantola wrote on Mon, 10 November 2008 19:29 I'd be happy to do a new test with a K47 included at some point.  Which M7 should I use to compare with? Any other ideas? Yes. Next week I will report on a new M7 PVC capsule of which I received a test sample and which impressed me as a possible path forward from historic models.

hurrah!

does this person also reskin?

[Klaus Heyne]

Yes.

More in a new thread soon.

[Eric H.]

chlpark wrote on Tue, 02 September 2008 11:30

Without a doubt, there was a capsule that stood above the rest throughout the listening test: The Neumann. For me it simply has a character of making you ‘being there’ that the others lack. I was specially impressed by the way it deals with the transients and how the different ways of attacking the strings are transmitted. As for the rest, my second and third choice would be the Wagner and the Thiersch PE. Lou Ximenez

I found the exact same thing.

Most of the time, the other ones only showed boring sound (in comparison). With maybe the exception of the Thiersch PVC.

But, if i learned something about listening tests, it is that the order of listening counts. the lenght here was really appropriate. But i feel there should be markers in this kind of test. If you have 6 capsules to include in the test, make at least an 8 samples list, with redundant capsules.
The first and last position is also tricky. I've found the way we listen is not at all linear.

Klaus, what about this new M7??

[Klaus Heyne]

I have been retesting several times since I first posted, and am currently retesting once more, to make sure that what I hear is accurate and withstands repetition under different circumstances and mics.

Report to follow soon.

[Arf! Mastering]

I've had a new pair of Thiersch Elektroacoustic's blue line PVC M7s for some months but have not mounted them for not wanting to cannibalize an existing mount.    STE now offers properly sized mounting rings, so I hope to finally hear these as soon as the rings arrive.

http://www.thiersch-mic.de/en/estm_produkte.html