R/E/P Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:


Author Topic: Neumann SM69 FET users?  (Read 20495 times)

Offline plughead

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 301
Neumann SM69 FET users?
« on: April 04, 2008, 08:58:58 pm »
Hi Folks,

I'm interested in user opinions on this mic: what does it excel on? What are its weaknesses?

Is there much difference between the USM69 and SM69 (FET) models?

Lastly, are there any known issues with this mic?

I did a few searches, but came up with very little (i.e. the thread about fixing the broken multi-core connector cable, and little more...)

Thanks a lot!

 
N. Jay Burr
PlugHead Productions

Offline Schallfeldnebel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2008, 02:59:02 pm »
OK, my 2 cents.

I'm interested in user opinions on this mic: what does it excel on? What are its weaknesses?
I think it is too sharp.

Is there much difference between the USM69 and SM69 (FET) models?
Noise and headroom. The USM69 has better specs than the SM69FET, selfnoise is lower in the USM69 and the max SPL is higher in the USM69.

Erik Sikkema


Bill Mueller:"Only very recently, has the availability of cheap consumer based gear popularized the concept of a rank amateur as an audio engineer. Unfortunately, this has also degraded the reputation of the audio engineer to the lowest level in its history. A sad thing indeed for those of us professionals."

Offline plughead

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 301
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2008, 05:36:45 pm »
Eric,

Thanks for this info. I have heard the SM69 FET is a bright microphone - with the same capsule as the U67, I thought it might share some similarities, tho I know it is attenuated and implemented differently.

Cheers
N. Jay Burr
PlugHead Productions

Offline J.J. Blair

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12809
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2008, 08:30:07 pm »
Because the U67 is dark-ish, the misconception is that the K67 is a dark capsule.  Actually, it is a very bright capsule.  Much more strident than a K47.  
studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Offline plughead

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 301
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2008, 01:25:43 am »
J.J. Blair wrote on Wed, 09 April 2008 20:30

Because the U67 is dark-ish, the misconception is that the K67 is a dark capsule.  Actually, it is a very bright capsule.  Much more strident than a K47.  


IME, I haven't found either of the U67's I've worked with to be dark - on the contrary, they can be very edgy on certain voices/styles.

That said, I'm totally interested in the "mids" of the K67 - can it(SM69) anywhere near resemble the U87/67 for "meat" in this register?

Thanks,
N. Jay Burr
PlugHead Productions

Offline Barry Hufker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8228
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2008, 11:14:54 am »
I wonder why there's never been a stereo U-47... Seems it might have (have had)great appeal.

Offline J.J. Blair

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12809
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2008, 11:25:11 am »
PlugHead wrote on Wed, 09 April 2008 22:25

IME, I haven't found either of the U67's I've worked with to be dark - on the contrary, they can be very edgy on certain voices/styles.


Then they must be broken.  (Just kidding.)

When I say dark, I don't mean dark like a RCA 44.  I mean dark compared to a 47 or especially a C12.  That's why I said dark-ish.  67s have a steeper roll off in the high end than any other of the famous tube mics of the era, mandated by German broadcast specifications.  
studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Offline J.J. Blair

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12809
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2008, 11:29:53 am »
Barry Hufker wrote on Thu, 10 April 2008 08:14

I wonder why there's never been a stereo U-47... Seems it might have (have had)great appeal.


Barry, imagine the size of a mic that could accommodate two VF14s and two BV8s.  Maybe they figured it's just easier to use two U47s.  LOL.  At least with the SM69, you have AC701s, and a way smaller transformer.
studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Offline Barry Hufker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8228
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2008, 06:42:33 pm »
All you've said is true enough, I'm just picturing the beast in my head and how cool it would be...

Offline jensenmann

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2008, 07:29:04 am »
Barry Hufker wrote on Thu, 10 April 2008 17:14

I wonder why there's never been a stereo U-47... Seems it might have (have had)great appeal.


When it was invented there was no stereo
Jens

Offline drknob

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2008, 09:31:57 am »
Maybe no 'official' stereo. Stephen Temmer once played me a stereo orchestral recording recorded somewhere in Germany at the end of WW2. A bit of artillery in the background.... (Seriously!)
Harold Kilianski
CIRMMT, McGill University

Offline Barry Hufker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8228
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2008, 11:17:46 am »
There has been stereo since Cl

Offline J.J. Blair

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12809
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2008, 12:01:09 pm »
Barry, the U94, courtesy of Photoshop:


index.php/fa/8485/0/

But it's more likely you'd want a stereo 48, so that you could do Blumlein.
studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Offline MagnetoSound

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2589
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2008, 01:02:10 pm »
That's nice work, JJ,

but shouldn't the top capsule be rotated 90

Music can make me get right up out of my chair and start dancing or it can get me so pumped up I have to walk around the block.
It can also knock me back and make me sit there and cry like a little baby. This shit is as powerful as any drug!!!
- Larry DeVivo


Offline J.J. Blair

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12809
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2008, 01:33:59 pm »
Actually, I rotated the capsule of the bottom one in photoshop.  You just can't see it under the grill.  
studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Offline MagnetoSound

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2589
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2008, 01:52:40 pm »
Aw heck, I should have guessed! Very Happy


Music can make me get right up out of my chair and start dancing or it can get me so pumped up I have to walk around the block.
It can also knock me back and make me sit there and cry like a little baby. This shit is as powerful as any drug!!!
- Larry DeVivo


Offline plughead

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 301
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2008, 03:34:13 pm »
It'd be hillarious to see this listed on fleabay as a Neumann prototype - "only one made"!  Imagine what you could fleece the newbs for?!?  Laughing (Just kidding - Klaus take note Rolling Eyes)

N. Jay Burr
PlugHead Productions

Offline Klaus Heyne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3154
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2008, 03:53:48 pm »
All I can say is: J.J.'s Erlk
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com

Offline Barry Hufker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8228
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2008, 04:36:53 pm »
J.J. Blair wrote on Fri, 11 April 2008 11:01

Barry, the U94, courtesy of Photoshop:


index.php/fa/8485/0/

But it's more likely you'd want a stereo 48, so that you could do Blumlein.



Gee, yours turned out so much better than mine...

index.php/fa/8490/0/

Offline Jessica A. Engle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2008, 04:45:25 pm »
Whups!  Wrong thread!

Edit:  Altho...  can the submarine record in stereo?

Offline Barry Hufker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8228
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2008, 05:11:44 pm »
Record in stereo?  Heck yeah.  It records in surround.  Look at all those torpedo tubes.  What do think they do, sister?

Offline J.J. Blair

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12809
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2008, 06:00:46 pm »
Klaus, here's the stereo U48.  Dunno if you could actually get two VF14s and two BV8s in here, but this is maybe the shortest you could go.


index.php/fa/8492/0/
studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Offline Barry Hufker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8228
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2008, 06:06:30 pm »
The U-94 and U-96... those are two handsome stereo mics....

If the price was right, I'd buy one.  And it's not out of the question to build one give the current metalwork, capsules, transformers and tubes...


Offline MagnetoSound

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2589
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2008, 06:50:00 pm »
The more I look at it, the more likely it seems that someone will try to do this ....


Music can make me get right up out of my chair and start dancing or it can get me so pumped up I have to walk around the block.
It can also knock me back and make me sit there and cry like a little baby. This shit is as powerful as any drug!!!
- Larry DeVivo


Offline J.J. Blair

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12809
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2008, 08:40:03 pm »
MagnetoSound wrote on Fri, 11 April 2008 15:50

The more I look at it, the more likely it seems that someone will try to do this ....




They sorta did:

http://www.atlasproaudio.com/r88.jpg

LOL.
studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Offline Tomas Danko

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4733
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2008, 09:08:09 pm »
MagnetoSound wrote on Fri, 11 April 2008 23:50

The more I look at it, the more likely it seems that someone will try to do this ....




Do you mean as in trying to build this thing...

...or trying to sell it on e-bay?
http://www.danko.se/site-design/dankologo4s.gif
"T(Z)= (n1+n2*Z^-1+n2*Z^-2)/(1+d1*z^-1+d2*z^-2)" - Mr. Dan Lavry
"Shaw baa laa raaw, sidle' yaa doot in dee splaa" . Mr Shooby Taylor

Offline Barry Hufker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8228
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2008, 09:28:37 pm »
As in commissioning someone to "build this thing".  I think it would be extremely hip.  It would certainly pull some company out of the U-47 rut.  And if built correctly could be amazing.  And the ELA M270 would no longer stand as quite so unique.

Offline MagnetoSound

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2589
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2008, 04:00:24 am »
Tomas Danko wrote on Sat, 12 April 2008 02:08

MagnetoSound wrote on Fri, 11 April 2008 23:50

The more I look at it, the more likely it seems that someone will try to do this ....




Do you mean as in trying to build this thing...

...or trying to sell it on e-bay?


Yeah, I meant actually doing it. Is there such a thing as a dual-triode EF14, or whatever, that would fit inside and sound good enough? I guess not ....

JJ, what IS that mic in the picture you just posted?


Dan

Music can make me get right up out of my chair and start dancing or it can get me so pumped up I have to walk around the block.
It can also knock me back and make me sit there and cry like a little baby. This shit is as powerful as any drug!!!
- Larry DeVivo


Offline plughead

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 301
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2008, 08:34:40 am »
It's an AEA R-88, tho kinda looks like a submarine!

I own one and love it, tho I started this thread to see if the SM69 FET would be a good, flexible alternative to the R-88 for archival recordings of recitals/concerts/live 2 track.

Now we may continue our digression into "FrankenMics"...  Twisted Evil

N. Jay Burr
PlugHead Productions

Offline Barry Hufker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8228
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2008, 10:41:58 am »
To return to the 69, you don't want one of those, you want this:

The QM69!  Everyone should have a Quadraphonic mic.


index.php/fa/8496/0/

Offline Chris Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 429
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2008, 06:50:57 pm »
Is this a tube or FET mic? (or released both ways like the SM69?)
Chris Moore

Offline Barry Hufker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8228
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2008, 11:35:24 pm »
No longer in manufacture and made in very small numbers, the QM69 is a fet design.

Offline Kewl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2008, 06:20:49 pm »
Another QM69 picture...

index.php/fa/8541/0/

- Daniel Courville

Offline Kewl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2008, 06:22:30 pm »
The other side.

index.php/fa/8542/0/

- Daniel

Offline Mal Stanley

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2008, 03:56:02 am »
The broadcaster I work for bought many SM69s in the 1970s..the non fet and fet variety..(the versions with the pattern selectors on the body..and the versions with the patterns on the remote box)...
they were often used for radio drama recordings ..the actors would be placed in an arc around them...

I record mostly jazz now and often use them for double bass..they have a 'tight' bottom end which I find works really well when micing close..and the two capsules can be angled for different emphasis (fingerboard and towards f hole)..can then blend these as desired..and no phase issues...I've also used them
to stereo mic nylon guitar and get a wider image as long as the player isn't too aggressive...
Mal Stanley
ABC Radio
Melbourne Australia
www.abc.net.au/classic/jazztrack

Offline Martin Kantola

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2008, 06:39:09 am »
MagnetoSound wrote on Fri, 11 April 2008 23:50

The more I look at it, the more likely it seems that someone will try to do this ....




Yes, here it is as a proto, guts exposed. But look at the size of this monster. On the other hand, it does surround too, not only stereo.


http://www.nu47.com/samples/megamike.jpg


Martin

Offline Chris Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 429
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2008, 01:04:50 pm »
six tubes?? wow.
Chris Moore

Offline Martin Kantola

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2008, 01:24:22 pm »
Oh yes. That's a V6 alright... Could be a world record, has a total power consumption of 25 watts...! Let me know if anybody's interested in hearing it, have some sample recordings somewhere I can dig up.

Martin

Offline plughead

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 301
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2008, 03:42:29 pm »
OMG!

I'd love to hear files from this mic, tho stereo would have to suffice: I don't have surround monitoring setup here...

Looks cool Martin - must get pretty hot with all those tubes and the fairly high voltage!?!

N. Jay Burr
PlugHead Productions

Offline Martin Kantola

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2008, 05:19:34 pm »
OK, here you go, some of you might have heard these already:

http://www.nu47.com/samples/orchestra.mp3
http://www.nu47.com/samples/quartet.mp3

These files are the dry mike signal only, no EQ or reverb added.

PlugHead wrote on Sat, 14 June 2008 20:42

Looks cool Martin - must get pretty hot with all those tubes and the fairly high voltage!?!


Did a special casing for it to let the heat out better. It was a challenge to build with all those amps for the heaters, yes. But fun too!

Martin



Offline plughead

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 301
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2008, 12:05:21 pm »
Wow: very, very nice sounding recordings - full bodied sound, no stridency, or hype.

If I may ask - where was the mic positioned for both sessions? For orchestra, I'd assume conductor's position up 10-15 feet?

thx,

N. Jay Burr
PlugHead Productions

Offline Martin Kantola

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2008, 01:38:14 pm »
Thanks for listening and for the kind words. Not too bad for just ONE mike, is it? Just imagine what I could do with a dozen of these monstermikes, or maybe not... Smile

Seriously, there is clearly something special about 100% coincident recording techniques such as Blumlein, even if it's not the best solution for everything.

As for the placement in the orchestra recording, the microphone was in fact in the audience, perhaps 4th row. Pretty decent resolution IMHO.

Martin
PS. My sincere apologies for leading this thread astray from it's original subject. Should have started a new one, but I got so inspired by the clever photoshopping...

Offline Markus Sauschlager

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2008, 06:55:12 am »
I hate to ask an off topic question here, but I'm just so curious: Martin, what are the capsules you used in your Monstermic??

Markus
Markus Sauschlager

- Schauma amal, dann werma schon sehen... -

"...and do not forget that marketing is b.s. with a sugar coating." - O. Archut, 06 March 2009

Offline Silvertone

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1105
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2008, 07:46:53 am »
I use to use the tube 69 for choir recording back in S.F.  A great mic to capture both performance and room.

I know it's a sin to place this mic in a Neumann thread but here is my prototype "Radio Institute at Popov" stereo Russian tube microphone made back in 1970...

index.php/fa/9177/0/
Larry DeVivo
Silvertone Mastering, Inc.
PO Box 4582
Saratoga Springs, NY 12866
www.silvertonemastering.com
To see some of our work please click on any of the visual trailer montages located at... http://robertetoll.com/  (all music and sound effects were mastered by Silvertone Mastering).

Offline Martin Kantola

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2008, 10:44:01 am »
Markus Sauschlager wrote on Mon, 16 June 2008 11:55

I hate to ask an off topic question here, but I'm just so curious: Martin, what are the capsules you used in your Monstermic??

Markus


Hi Markus,

those are Neumann K89 capsules.

Martin

Offline plughead

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 301
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2008, 08:37:52 am »
Forgot to post this - saw it on eBay a couple of weeks ago:


Quote:

Neumann QM69 Quadraphonic microphone
One of only 50 ever made. Fully tested by Neumann Berlin.

Up for auction is the hugely rare Neumann QM69. If you are lucky enough to have seen or used one of these then you are of a very privileged few, as there were only 50 ever made.

Further to this and even more astonishingly, whilst this mic shows some evidence that it has been used for the large majority of it's life it has been in storage. I have just received it back from the Neumann factory in Berlin where I had it overhauled mechanically and elecrically for use, at a cost of
N. Jay Burr
PlugHead Productions

Offline plughead

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 301
Re: Neumann SM69 FET users?
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2008, 02:14:17 pm »
Rear shot:

index.php/fa/9906/0/
N. Jay Burr
PlugHead Productions