Topic: "Like a straight wire with gain..." (Read 10262 times)

JDNelson · « **on:** December 10, 2007, 11:53:47 PM »

Okay, why do some folks seem to think this would be a good thing in a mic preamp? And if it is then why not use DPA and Earthworks mic's, instead of Neumanns? Seems the whole idea is to make things sound as good as they can sound, not expose clinically every wart.

Fibes · « **Reply #1 on:** December 11, 2007, 08:56:01 AM »

JDNelson wrote on Mon, 10 December 2007 23:53

Okay, why do some folks seem to think this would be a good thing in a mic preamp? And if it is then why not use DPA and Earthworks mic's, instead of Neumanns? Seems the whole idea is to make things sound as good as they can sound, not expose clinically every wart.

There is a world of orchestral music that relies on uncolored signal paths.

DPA, Schoeps etc. are their mics of choice...

compasspnt · « **Reply #2 on:** December 11, 2007, 09:33:31 AM »

So there is little orange or green orchestral music.

E Merrill · « **Reply #3 on:** December 11, 2007, 10:48:53 AM »

Dave Martin · « **Reply #4 on:** December 11, 2007, 11:24:59 AM »

Eric Merrill wrote on Tue, 11 December 2007 09:48

`

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e1/Franksinatraconductstonepoemsofcolor.jpg

Are you sure that it's not 20th Century music written by African Americans?

JDNelson · « **Reply #5 on:** December 11, 2007, 12:49:14 PM »

Right, I get that (should have acknowledged in my original post)... but the guys that are throwing this cliche around at GS or whatever are most likely not in the classical field.

This phrase seems to get thrown around a lot in conjunction with prosumer gear such as Grace and True pre-amps. I mean, I think utterly transparent would be boring for rock and roll, wouldn't it?

And even in the context of classical music, weren't there a lot of great recordings from the 1950's etc. which were made with tube equipment, which hardly could have been transparent?

Fibes · « **Reply #6 on:** December 11, 2007, 01:42:17 PM »

JDNelson wrote on Tue, 11 December 2007 12:49

This phrase seems to get thrown around a lot in conjunction with prosumer gear such as Grace and True pre-amps. I mean, I think utterly transparent would be boring for rock and roll, wouldn't it?

And even in the context of classical music, weren't there a lot of great recordings from the 1950's etc. which were made with tube equipment, which hardly could have been transparent?

The grace stuff i've used is hardly pro-sumer, and the true 2 channel is pretty hi-end.

transparent boring? This somehow feels a little like "party line" talk rather than reality and real world use. Some of the best stuff i've done was tracked on "clean" pres...

BTW properly designed, maintained and used tube gear can be as transparent as anything. The myths of tube warmth, color and all that jazz is a freaking ad-fodder crapfest IMNSHO.

Also, i can't read GS, it's infuriating, vaccuos, vapid and...

JDNelson · « **Reply #7 on:** December 11, 2007, 02:18:13 PM »

Kevin, would you say then that Grace or True preamps are well suited to recording general purpose R&R music?

PS: I don't ascribe "warmth" so much to tube gear as I assume the transient response is more "rounded off" than (faster) FET topology. Am I off base here?

Dave Martin · « **Reply #8 on:** December 11, 2007, 02:34:36 PM »

JDNelson wrote on Tue, 11 December 2007 13:18

Kevin, would you say then that Grace or True preamps are well suited to recording general purpose R&R music?

I ain't Kevin, but sure, Grace preamps work fine on Rock and Roll records. I've also used 'em for western swing, country, pop, and bluegrass records. Quite honestly, if a rock and roll record is boring, it isn't the preamp's fault.

johnR · « **Reply #9 on:** December 11, 2007, 02:51:18 PM »

JDNelson wrote on Tue, 11 December 2007 19:18

PS: I don't ascribe "warmth" so much to tube gear as I assume the transient response is more "rounded off" than (faster) FET topology. Am I off base here?

Yes. Tubes are still used in high powered radio transmitters because there are no solid state devices with a high enough power rating that are fast enough. A decent audio tube output transformer will have a response well beyond 20kHz. Cascading more than a few of them will probably introduce an audible HF roll off, but a tube mic pre can have a very good transient response. It's usually the transformer that limits bandwidth in either tube or solid state gear.

Fibes · « **Reply #10 on:** December 11, 2007, 04:08:35 PM »

Dave Martin wrote on Tue, 11 December 2007 14:34

JDNelson wrote on Tue, 11 December 2007 13:18

Kevin, would you say then that Grace or True preamps are well suited to recording general purpose R&R music?

I ain't Kevin, but sure, Grace preamps work fine on Rock and Roll records. I've also used 'em for western swing, country, pop, and bluegrass records. Quite honestly, if a rock and roll record is boring, it isn't the preamp's fault.

Kevin agrees with Dave.

This may sound like heresy to some (especially at GS) but I can say that after a certain quality point the preamp has very little to do with the sonic results.

Moving mics, twisting mics, room placement, tuning, amp eq, drum sizeand a host of other things make a much larger impact on the results.

I am an API addict.

compasspnt · « **Reply #11 on:** December 11, 2007, 04:39:59 PM »

Fibes wrote on Tue, 11 December 2007 16:08

I am an API addict.

And you admit it.

That is the first step.

And that's what I like about you.

Fig · « **Reply #12 on:** December 12, 2007, 02:13:59 PM »

Like classical music - in rock - if a snare drum, bass amp, guitar amp or voice sounds exactly like you want AT THE SOURCE, a colorless signal path is what is desired.

The times I try to color a sound is when the source isn't what I would prefer. But if it sounds like we want it to already, the last thing I want to do is change that by using a colored mic, pre, or whathaveyou.

YMMV.

$0.02,

Fig

Larry Villella · « **Reply #13 on:** December 18, 2007, 12:46:55 PM »

The idea of a modular pre-amp has always appealed to me, so I finally got a couple of American Design-Engineers to build one.

I find it super-useful to be able to swap Op-Amps and Input Transformers to go from transparent to highly 'colored'.

For classical, I use a Forssell Tech Op-Amp. For Rock and Roll I use the John Hardy. For Vocals, a Lundahl Transformer
can round out the tone of a sibilant, nasal singer. For Drums and Guitars the Jensen Transformer is just stunning!

Why buy One Pre-amp when you can have a dozen permutations from the same Little Black Box. . .

Made in USA (So. California), built like a tank with a steel chassis, etc.

It might just surprise you with it's super-usefulness and flexibility !!!

That said - Mic Technique and Gain-Staging are more important than whatever gear you'll ever put in the signal chain - for sure!!

Cheers!

Larry Villella, ADK)))

Bodoc · « **Reply #14 on:** December 31, 2007, 04:13:29 PM »

The music and arrangement have been chosen. The players and sound sources have been chosen. The acoustic space has been chosen. The mike has been chosen. The placement of the mike has been chosen.

If, through luck or meticulous selection you got just what you wanted, you just might want to leave it right there...with gain.

Of course, all the above might be musically enhanced with the critical selection of a pre to bring all of that somewhere else.

Either way, the selection of the pre should be an informed decision based on desired musical outcomes.

Sometimes, Yo-Yo Ma and his 1712 Davidoff Stradivarius doesn't need to be crayoned with a pre.

Jim Williams · « **Reply #15 on:** January 03, 2008, 11:33:36 AM »

Depending on the source, some preamps are really low pass filters with an aural exciter thrown in.

Might work for some kid banging on an electric guitar, but try using say an API preamp on a bell tree, it won't work.

Here's a question for ya, if you had to give up your ears and get an implant, which preamp would you pick for general listening?

I can only imagine being forced to hear the world through rose colored ears. If we had API ears, we would have never evolved as the saber toothed tigers would have finished us off thousands of years ago.

Food for thought, or food for big cats?

tom eaton · « **Reply #16 on:** January 03, 2008, 09:37:42 PM »

Jim Williams wrote on Thu, 03 January 2008 11:33

Might work for some kid banging on an electric guitar, but try using say an API preamp on a bell tree, it won't work.

Jim...I think there have been many kids who have made okay records (even great sounding records) using their API toys.

I love what you've done with my personal gear, but remind me not to send you anything with a transformer in it!

I'll happily record a bell tree through my APIs, by the way. I'll send you the recording if you want to call it names.

-tom

hargerst · « **Reply #17 on:** January 03, 2008, 10:36:07 PM »

After the mic, I think the other things that get thrown into the chain do more to color the sound than the preamp does.

Jim Williams · « **Reply #18 on:** January 04, 2008, 11:36:34 AM »

tom eaton wrote on Thu, 03 January 2008 18:37

Jim Williams wrote on Thu, 03 January 2008 11:33

Might work for some kid banging on an electric guitar, but try using say an API preamp on a bell tree, it won't work.

Jim...I think there have been many kids who have made okay records (even great sounding records) using their API toys.

I love what you've done with my personal gear, but remind me not to send you anything with a transformer in it!

I'll happily record a bell tree through my APIs, by the way. I'll send you the recording if you want to call it names.

-tom

I'd just probably change the iron to Jensen. Those work for me.
Maybe the opamp, too. Then there are those coupling caps. Then the power supply caps, and so on.

Hank Alrich · « **Reply #19 on:** January 04, 2008, 11:56:48 AM »

Dave Martin wrote on Tue, 11 December 2007 11:34

Quite honestly, if a rock and roll record is boring, it isn't the preamp's fault.

LOL! .sig material there, Dave.

"You got to lively up yo' preamp"

I've not used any of the True pres, but I have used some Grace pres and they were quite good. Can't see they'd keep anybody from making a great recording if they had great music to start with.

maarvold · « **Reply #20 on:** January 14, 2008, 10:24:18 AM »

Hank Alrich wrote on Fri, 04 January 2008 08:56

...I've not used any of the True pres...

I am a "straight wire with gain" guy. I did audition the True preamps and passed. They were pretty good, but not good enough; there was something I didn't like about them. I ended up buying Millennias (more expensive). Then I bought Gordons (even more expensive).

wwittman · « **Reply #21 on:** January 19, 2008, 03:54:06 PM »

Jim Williams wrote on Thu, 03 January 2008 11:33

Might work for some kid banging on an electric guitar, but try using say an API preamp on a bell tree, it won't work.

really?

can you run some tones through an API mic pre and PROVE it has less top than other mic pres?

so all those years when Command Studios or Record Plant had API desks and someone came in with a bell tree, they had to say "sorry. Can;t record that here" and offered a referral to another studio???
I think not.

on the other issue:
I've never had anyone walk into the control room for playback and say the equivalent of: "Hey!! My snare drum sounds better in here than out there! FIX that!"

Andy Simpson · « **Reply #22 on:** January 23, 2008, 07:37:52 AM »

wwittman wrote on Sat, 19 January 2008 21:54

Jim Williams wrote on Thu, 03 January 2008 11:33

Might work for some kid banging on an electric guitar, but try using say an API preamp on a bell tree, it won't work.

....
can you run some tones through an API mic pre and PROVE it has less top than other mic pres?
....

I'd also like to hear more specifics on that. I think he's suggesting that the harmonic distortion would be ugly on such an instrument - how does it do on tambourine?

Andy

gwailoh · « **Reply #23 on:** January 23, 2008, 02:08:41 PM »

Quote:

how does it do on tambourine?

Just fine. I use API pre's on tamborine routinely. I wouldn't hesitate to use them on bell tree, myself.

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Author Topic: "Like a straight wire with gain..." (Read 10262 times)