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[J.J. Blair]

Dave, first of all, you're not the only one here who has had to defend his opinions about the U87.  We're on pretty much the same page.  It's a great do everything mic, but it doesn't do all those things great.

Secondly, you've made enough records in enough first class studios with enough good microphones that I know you know what you're talking about.  But then again, I might be the only guy here who knows your discography.

[kats]

Well I don't (say) anybody is "excited" about U87's if they're familiar with some of the great mics we talk about. There's nothing to really defend. I've never heard people say it's "the best"

It's a $2k mic, and most of us cannot afford a dozen of the classics, so a few 87's laying around can come in pretty handy. The only thing today is that the competition in that area is pretty heated compared to even less than 10 years ago.

But there's something to be said for buying gear from long established companies.

[J.J. Blair]

kats wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 09:19

The only thing today is that the competition in that area is pretty heated compared to even less than 10 years ago.

Exactly.  That's a huge point as to why it was used on so many classic recordings, IMO.

[kats]

You know what would be interesting, a list of professional LDC's in 1975 that were still being manafactured.

[Klaus Heyne]

kats wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 09:19

.... The only thing today is that the competition in that area ( around $2k) is pretty heated, compared to even less than 10 years ago. But there's something to be said for buying gear from long established companies.

But that's not really all there is about the enduring popularity of the U87 (still the #1 money making model from Neumann, from what I hear):

It is one of the few mics with a stellar sounding capsule of unsurpassed build quality and durability, matched with a discreet-componentry amp, sporting just one active component in the audio circuitry, and using a transformer-coupled output.

Despite the junky amp circuit, its less than adequate component quality, and, on second sight, a less than stellar transformer (I came around to that realization only recently - see post http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/18705/318/),

The sum of all this: This mic is still tops in its (price and quality) class.

[Dominick]

kats wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 19:23

You know what would be interesting, a list of professional LDC's in 1975 that were still being manafactured.

Neumann U87 & U47fet. AKG C414EB. Sony C48 & C500.  Beyer, Milab & Gefell also offered LDC mics at the time.

[Silvertone]

With the U87 in particular I have found coupling it with the right mic pre-amp can make all the difference in the world. I have several tube pre-amps from the 50's that can even make a blah mic like the TLM170 come to life. Same with some of the earlier solid state pre-amp offerings. But some of the more modern pre-amps can just make the mic's seem flat by comparison.

I've learned over the years that finding the right combo of mic and pre-amp to be the real magic bullet.

I'm sure it's a loading issue more than anything but this "issue" is very important. However it is not talked about very often. People seem to just discount the mic and move on. I use to be guilty of this myself and in the heat of the session who has time for such nonsense anyway. But it is an issue well worth pursuing. Over time and through experimentation I have found "magic combinations that flatter both the mic's and the pre-amps.

Henry Hirsh had mention that Dave Amels and he were doing similar experiments and that Dave really helped him out with this "loading" issue.

I just thought it might warrant some discussion given the fact that a U87 is a good all a round mic that can be taken to the "next level" when coupled with the right pre amp (as can many mic's IMHO).

[Jørn Bonne]

Klaus Heyne wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 21:43

Since about 2-3 years something audible has changed in many, not all, U87Ai which can be traced to the K870/67 capsule: the bass response has noticeably been reduced, and over a rather wide range.   I can say that with confidence, not because so many of you are already complaining, but because I see quite a few brand new capsules in my shop, directly out of the capsule box, or brand new U87Ai, delivered from Neumann- capsules and mics which have never been exposed to any possibility of abuse. I have been in on-going correspondence with the Technical Director of Neumann about this (he cannot explain this phenomenon at this point, and wrote me that to his knowledge nothing has changed in the manufacturing process or the specs of the capsule in the last three years, but he is continuing to research the matter.) If you take these issues together, you would think that enough of a momentum is generated which adds up to a definitive verdict: old U87's are better than new ones! I wish it was that easy. On any given day, I may take a BRAND-NEW K870/87 out of the box, and will exclaim: perfect!   The search continues.

Hi Klaus

Have you gotten to the bottom of this yet? Is the current K870/87 bass poor in general, as compared to earlier versions?

I am looking for a U87 at the moment and am interested to know the final word on your concern here.

Thanks

JB

[Klaus Heyne]

I submitted two samples of brand new, unused K87/870 to the technical director of Neumann in Berlin with documentation as to the problems and K87 history three weeks ago.

One sample was of a K87 from more than 10 years ago which was nicely frequency-balanced- the kind that sounds similar or identical to good K67s from the 1960s, and would not lead to the complaints I have and the ones currently circulating on the internet.

The other was taken from a brand-new U87Ai, serial number 100xxx. This capsule displayed a rather big drop-off in the low end, which made the mic sound hard and cold.

I did of course test the reverse as well: mounted the 10-year old K87 on the brand-new U87Ai and compared its sonic signature to that of the K870 that came with it.

The technical director promised to analyze both of capsules and report  back. I will report his findings here as soon as I have them.

[MDM,]

what's not to love?

the price, many capsules (even in the early 80's), the fact that the rear side was often NOT as good as the front (I know because I worked for a Radio station which had quite a few), the 'processor' design Klaus mentioned etc..

the U87 (incl. Ai) had much market in broadcast, which means: cardioid (back side almost never used), close-mic voice, low-end rolloff because of proximity and plosives, high-end rolloff because of proximity and consonants.. etc..

so many people bought it on the reputation alone.

I did try one good U87 from the early 70's  which had some magic because of the capsule..

[Klaus Heyne]

MDM, wrote on Thu, 04 September 2008 13:49

what's not to love? ... the fact that the rear side was often NOT as good as the front (I know because I worked for a Radio station which had quite a few)

I am sorry, but I cannot support that contention. I have never found any rhyme or reason how Neumann selected sides of a K87 capsule, other than putting to the front where the writing is.

In addition, I have it from good authority that Neumann did the writing randomly, i.e. no front-side selection for K87 capsules based on performance was made (and how could they, considering that uniform performance is required for omni and figure-eight.)

I would also argue it's close to impossible for you (or me) to hear what the rear side of a double backplate/diaphragm capsule sounds like unless you mechanically reverse the capsule in its mount, then test the new front side against the old one, in cardioid.

Quote:

the U87 (incl. Ai) had much market in broadcast, which means: cardioid (back side) almost never used

and that I would regard as a big plus. You get to experience an almost brand-new cardioid after reversing the capsule.

In general, I still maintain that the U87 is the most versatile of all professional solid state microphones ever made. A workhorse if there ever was one.

And, as to price:I would not denigrate those who pay two grand or more for this mic. Most of us know what we want in a mic and are no fools who would buy a model just on someone else's idea of value.

[J.J. Blair]

One thing, value wise, about the U87, is that the overwhelming majority of them that were bought 30+ years ago are still working.  They are workhorses, and the parts are still available.  Perhaps you can buy some other FET LDC for cheaper, but what are the chances you can still service is, or that it will work?

Personally, I like 414EBs more, but as we all know, you can't replace the capsules on them.

But I could confidently say that I could make a great sounding record with nothing but U87s.  I'm don't know what other FET SDC I could say that about.  

[compasspnt]

J.J. Blair wrote on Thu, 04 September 2008 23:35

I could confidently say that I could make a great sounding record with nothing but U87s.  I'm don't know what other FET SDC I could say that about.

This is certainly true.  You can literally use an 87 in any instance.  Maybe not always the first choice, but always to a standard, and always usable.


So Klaus, one could just spin around the capsule, and thereby have a (more or less) "new" cardiod capsule front?

[jetbase]

MDM, wrote on Fri, 05 September 2008 06:49

the fact that the rear side was often NOT as good as the front (I know because I worked for a Radio station which had quite a few)

I was told by Gunter Wagner that it was sometimes a practice to prolong the life of a failing capsule by turning it around, as they are identical. Of course, this would affect the polar patterns.

[Klaus Heyne]

compasspnt wrote on Thu, 04 September 2008 20:43

So Klaus, one could just spin around the capsule, and thereby have a (more or less) "new" cardiod capsule front?

Principally, yes. A little used membrane in the shadow of an abused, filthy one that has seen its share of SPLs will perform more like it did when it came from the factory.

But you still need to listen to the 'new' side first, before making it permanently your  front, as sometimes that side may just not sound right to your ears. The wide tolerance, side to side, in these and similarly constructed capsules requires you to determine which side you prefer.