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Author Topic: Neumann U87Ai - What's not to love?  (Read 37703 times)

Glenn Bucci

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Neumann U87Ai - What's not to love?
« on: November 06, 2007, 06:47:45 AM »

I have heard the Brauners, Blue, Neumanns, Soundelux... and other mics out there.

I personally have always loved the U87Ai sound. It has that classic low-mid Neumann rich sound.  It has a great top end, and to me it sounds just amazing on many vocalists.

However, there seem to be many who say it's not as good as many other mics.  They say, the U87 has this weak area, and needs this or that update to sound better.

... I am not trying to start a thread of 'this mic is better than that mic' but, being the engineer, I am honestly trying to understand what many feel is missing with the U87Ai.  Smile

Thanks
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J.J. Blair

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Re: U87ai, what's not to love?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2007, 10:16:04 AM »

Can't comment on the 87A.  All my experience is with the old 87.  How do they sound different?
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

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Tomas Danko

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Re: U87ai, what's not to love?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2007, 11:12:51 AM »

Technical differences aside, I feel the U87 is a bit more romantic with a tad bit more silk around the less exaggerated top end compared to the...

...U87A which is more strident, with a marked presence on the upper mids and top end. More in your face and "modern" sounding, if I may use that word.

The U87 sometimes has this odd warbly distortion thing going on with certain transients, whenever I record voice overs. Very weird but totally passable. We had a discussion about that a long time ago here on PSW. I've heard this on several U87 microphones throughout the years.

The U87a has a hotter output on the whole and in the end I get less noise when using one, compared to the U87.

In my experience, the U87A can have a tendency to make certain mic preamps go splat on the sibilants and top end.

Personally, I like both versions.

And in the end, five U87 microphones will often give you four-five different sounds. And the same goes for five U87a microphones.

YMMV, IMHO.
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Steve Hudson

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Re: U87ai, what's not to love?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2007, 12:21:10 PM »

I find the 87ai very shrill compared to my 70s-vintage 87. It also has less headroom and distorts sooner with loud sources.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: U87ai, what's not to love?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2007, 12:46:23 PM »

I wouldn't describe U87 as "shrill."  In comparison to most mics, it's "boxy" to me.  It's that 1kHz thing that I can't get past.  

I don't know what is going on there, but I find myself needing to EQ it out a tad, frequently.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Steve Hudson

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Re: U87ai, what's not to love?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2007, 01:34:05 PM »

JJ, I was referring to the newer 87ai, not the original 87s; I agree with Tomas' description of both versions.  
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"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.  There's also a negative side."

- Hunter S. Thompson should have said this, but didn't

http://www.myspace.com/steventoddhudson

Glenn Bucci

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Re: U87ai, what's not to love?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2007, 03:14:42 PM »

I also agree with Tomas' description of both versions.

However I am still unclear why so many say "oh there are so many better mics out there than the U87Ai" ...Is there any real issue that you guys find with the U87Ai or is it just some people on the forums have new favorites?
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: U87ai, what's not to love?
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2007, 03:43:15 PM »

This subject comes up so much, that it's time to really go into the matter, as objective and unbiased as is humanly possible.

First issue:
"U87s are honky in the mids" and:
"but, they still sound quite unique and are universally usable"


My explanation is simple: The honk comes from severe negative feedback, in the high and low frequencies and smaller global (gain reduction) feedback. Phase shift is the audible side effect of this, and is universally disliked in almost any mic by almost any user.

It is interesting to note that the amount and implementation of the severe
negative feedback is identical in both versions, though the global feedback was removed in the new version (which, in theory, should make that mic sound better.)

Despite the feedback-induced honk, the saving grace for this model is the extraordinary good capsule design of the K67/87 which mitigates enough of this garbage that the net effect on the listener is still positive.

Second Issue:
"The old U87i model sounds smoother/better, more vintage, than new U87Ai model"


Let's look at the exact (and only) differences in the two models:

A. 60V pol. voltage in the U87A vs. 44V in the U87.

An argument can be made that the higher voltage does a couple of things in the new mic: it hardens the sound (60V pull more on the diaphragm than 44V, making it a bit stiffer, and, from experience, a bit more aggressive sounding)

The higher capsule output also overloads the FET a bit sooner than the old U87 with its lower voltage into the FET's gate/input.

B. Capsule differences.

The method of spacing the diaphragm 40
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Glenn Bucci

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Re: U87ai, what's not to love?
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2007, 05:18:08 PM »

Thank you for your insight on this matter Klaus, I really appreciate it. Having a honky midrange....interesting and something I agree with. There is definitely more top end on the Ai over the 87. However one would think if you use the mic with a tube pre like a 737, Pendulum, or Manley, the hardness most likely would go away. However we know the importance of getting the right sound at the source.

Question, with most mic’s don’t you usually say I love the mic, but I wish it had…..  I am looking for that one high end mic that has the wonderful high end, full sound (transformer please) and some character. Blue Kiwi is too silky and lacks a  transformer, Brauner seems to have more silibant issues with more singers than other mic’s, and lacks a vintage character I like.  It does though sound great.. Perhaps with my Voxbox, I would be very happy with the sound I would get with a Brauner Phantom.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: U87ai, what's not to love?
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2007, 06:03:29 PM »

Steve Hudson wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 10:34

JJ, I was referring to the newer 87ai, not the original 87s; I agree with Tomas' description of both versions.  


I know!  I was kind of agreeing by saying that the 87 is not shrill.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

soundmind

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Re: Neumann U87Ai - What's not to love?
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2007, 04:11:57 AM »

I bought a fairly recent U87Ai and it is sounding very good to me.

It is a great utility mic.

I have used it on many sources and it has always delivered.

My dream would be to send it to Klaus and have him make it great.

At this point, I'm really enjoying the sound and flexibility.

If nothing else, it is a good starting point for consistent and beautiful sound.
I also have noticed that clients are reassured when they see a U87.
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compasspnt

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Re: Neumann U87Ai - What's not to love?
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2007, 09:56:16 AM »

soundmind wrote on Sat, 24 November 2007 04:11

I also have noticed that clients are reassured when they see a U87.


In most cases, this is true.

Almost every single VO/ADR session we get specifically asks for an 87.
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Tomas Danko

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Re: Neumann U87Ai - What's not to love?
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2007, 10:56:55 AM »

soundmind wrote on Sat, 24 November 2007 09:11

I bought a fairly recent U87Ai and it is sounding very good to me.

It is a great utility mic.

I have used it on many sources and it has always delivered.

My dream would be to send it to Klaus and have him make it great.

At this point, I'm really enjoying the sound and flexibility.

If nothing else, it is a good starting point for consistent and beautiful sound.
I also have noticed that clients are reassured when they see a U87.


I agree with all of the above, and this is exactly what I have done. Never understood why people think it's a bad mic.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Neumann U87Ai - What's not to love?
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2007, 10:58:44 AM »

Tomas, nobody said it was bad.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Mike Phillips

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Re: Neumann U87Ai - What's not to love?
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2007, 11:46:34 AM »

1) Would a KH-updated 87Ai be as good as or better than an old 87?

2) Would a KH-updated 87Ai be as good as an updated old 87?

3) What would KH typically charge to update either mic?

As an aside, I have a four-digit serial number 87 that I sold years ago and then bought back. It's sister (one digit removed) just sold by its subsequent owner for $4000. I wanted to buy it back, but I was not willing to pay that price for it.
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