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Author Topic: 47FET substitute??  (Read 34014 times)

compasspnt

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Re: 47FET substitute??
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2007, 01:19:19 PM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Sat, 13 October 2007 00:42


However, the company does not seem shy to also try to participate in the vintage vocal mic craze with its marketing of the new TLM49.



Exactly!

The have a tremendous brand name with which to attract new buyers...probably the best brand name in microphone history...and they are using their well-known vintage look, tied to that brand name, to go for the "vintage vocal craze" market.

Eventually, if the newer microphone designs do not maintain a classic status for a long period of time, that brand name will suffer.

Already such large companies as Audio Technica, Rode, and others, plus many smaller, boutique manufacturers such as Brauner, Soundelux/Bock and others, have made serious inroads.

The way to offset this intrusion into their market would be to do just as Klaus says above...have a flagship professional model, sold even at little to no profit to discriminating professionals, to maintain the brand aura.

Easy for me to say.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: 47FET substitute??
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2007, 02:48:28 PM »

RPhilbeck wrote on Fri, 12 October 2007 20:45

J.J. Blair wrote on Fri, 12 October 2007 22:00


Look at companies like Brauner, Gefell and Bock.  They are using discrete components and transformers.


Gefell has transformerless microphones too, so Neumann is not the only company that sees value in this design.  Coincidentally, the U87 has a transformer, and can be modified 6 ways from Sunday, and is only the most ubiquitous microphone on the face of the earth.  If you can't do something with this microphone, then God help you.  But, if you really can't, you just mentioned three fine alternatives.

The U87 is a 40 year old mic, and that is the only reason the transformer is held over.  I can't think of a single new Neumann mic using a transformer.  (Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.)

We keep saying to them, "But we LIKE the sound of transformers," and they keep saying that we don't need them.  As a consumer, I find have to conclude one of two things: They are either arrogant and paternalistic, or they have bean counters involved in the mic's design, and it's just cheaper for them to take automanufactured PCBs, and slap a capsule and body on them.  in the meantime, they'll tell us that we're a bunch of luddites who can't appreciate the better specs.

BTW, the U87 is a fine mic, but it is, in my opinion, not even in the same class as its tube predecessors.  If the U87 is the best that Neumann has to offer these days, then something is seriously wrong.  Imagine if you went into a big studio, and the best mic in their locker was a U87.  It would be laughable.  

As far as Gefell goes, while they offer transformerless mics, they still offer mics with transformers, for those of us who prefer them.  they have not eschewed them completely, as Neumann seems to have.  

And I'm sorry if I'm venting frustration out on Neumann, but after talking with reps at AKG, who say things like "We have no interest in revisiting the past," while they haven't made a new high end mic other than the overpriced C12VR (see that thread for opinions), and having Neumann offer us nothing lately but what really amount to marketing gimmicks: the M147 and TLM49, I find it irksome to have their designers come in here to insist that the spec of these new novelty mics are better than the ones we know and love.  

And really, let's face the facts: the M149 is "ok" and usable, but nothing close to previous Neumann tube mics, in terms of majesty.  I think a number of us would have embraced them, if we found that to be the case.  Maybe they should have done a M149-KHE?
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

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rphilbeck

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Re: 47FET substitute??
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2007, 07:07:43 PM »

The number of years the U87 has been in production has nothing to do with your comment about transformers.  Whether it is a hold over or not is irrelevant.  They make transformer based mics! The U87, U89, and the SM-69 being three of them.  

From an R&D perspective they do seem to be focused on low cost tx-less mics. Who can blame them?  They've already got the upper end of the market covered with the mics I mention above.  Why not focus more on the hobby end market?  I appreciate their willingness to bring decent microphones to studios on tighter budgets.  And for the money, the TLM line is nothing to scoff at!

I would never find a U87 laughable. That mic has recorded some of the most fantastic rock n roll guitars and voices ever recorded!  If you can't make the source sound anything less than stellar with a U87 then something is wrong.  

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Klaus Heyne

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Re: 47FET substitute??
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2007, 08:47:55 PM »

Small correction: The SM69 has been discontinued. The only stereo mic available from Neumann is the USM69.

As for the mics which are still being made by Neumann with transformers today- the three models you mentioned are all that's left. And none of these models is newer than 20 years.
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Klaus Heyne
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Arf! Mastering

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Re: 47FET substitute??
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2007, 09:37:55 PM »

It would seem that Neumann could do short runs of special vintage recreations.  They did so with the U67 reissue and it sold out. (Although they had all the parts on hand.)  

I agree that it would do a lot to continue the cachet of the Neumann brand if they were to do so, in the face of so many low cost mics on the market - the market in which they are now competing.  BTW, the Wunder CM7-GT is another winner, IMO.

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J.J. Blair

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Re: 47FET substitute??
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2007, 12:57:35 PM »

RPhilbeck wrote on Sat, 13 October 2007 16:07

I am not confusing anything.  The number of years the U87 has been in production has nothing to do with your comment about transformers, which incorrectly suggests that Neumann does not use transformers in any of their new mics.  Whether it is a hold over or not is irrelevant.  They make transformer based mics! The U87, U89, and the SM-69 being three of them.  They make them brand new.  They are currently in production.  There you go.


Klaus answered this.  In the last 20 years, they have not designed a mic with a transformer.  This was specifically my point.  They don't want to build them.  

Quote:

From an R&D perspective they do seem to be focused on low cost tx-less mics. Who can blame them?  They've already got the upper end of the market covered with the mics I mention above.  Why not focus more on the hobby end market?  I appreciate their willingness to bring decent microphones to studios on tighter budgets.  And for the money, the TLM line is nothing to scoff at!


Who can blame them?  Well, try listening to their new mics against their old ones.  And they  DON'T have the upper end covered.  If they did, people would be buying TLM49s and not spending upwards of $6,000 on vintage U47s.  And the "for the money" argument doesn't work.  If I'm making a record, and I'm renting a studio for $1,200 and up, I don't want to hear "This is a good mic for the money."  Which they aren't, btw.  There are much better mics for the money.  Langevin CR3As were going for $400 when people starting buying TLM193 like crazy.  The CR3A sounded five times as good as the TLM193, at less than half the cost.  And I never had to say to a client, "This is a good mic for the money."  I'd say "This is a great mic in this application."  They'd throw it on and say I was right.

Quote:

I would never find a U87 laughable.  I think your statement is a little harsh.  That mic has recorded some of the most fantastic rock n roll guitars and voices ever recorded!  If you can't make the source sound anything less than stellar with a U87 than something is wrong.  


Oh, please.  If you went into an expensive studio and that's the best mic they have, it IS laughable.  A U87 has recorded some good vocals.  Fantastic?  No way.  You want a fantastic vocal sound?  Listen to Joni Mitchell on Court and Sparl.  It shimmers.  No way that's a U87.   Most likely a 251.

I have a lot of mics.  I have owned three early U87s, and sold each one of them.  I have access to an U87 any time I want.  Let me put it this way: anytime I put a U87 in the line up on a singer against other mics, nobody EVER says, "That's the best sounding mic."  Never.

It's a serviceable mic.  It was a relief to all the studios who found it difficult to maintain tube mics.  It's a little honky at 1kHz.  It's a tad dark on top.  It responds well to EQ, though, which makes it usable on everything.  But so does a U67, which sounds even better.  Besides, I prefer mics that I don't have to EQ to get a great sound.  

Now, take your U87, and get a Brauner AE, a Blue Kiwi and a UM70 (with or without transformer), do a shoot out, as I have done, and tell me the U87 is the best sounding of the group.  It's not.  It never will be.  

It's not a horrible mic.  It doesn't suck.  The mic itself isn't laughable.  But it's not a crown jewel.  And the point being that Neumann has no crown jewels right now.  Actually, they have tried to tell us that the M149 is, but those of us who have used them don't seem to agree.  
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

J.J. Blair

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Re: 47FET substitute??
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2007, 12:58:36 PM »

Arf! Mastering wrote on Sat, 13 October 2007 18:37

It would seem that Neumann could do short runs of special vintage recreations.  They did so with the U67 reissue and it sold out. (Although they had all the parts on hand.)


My understanding was that they did so using left over parts.  I think that makes a difference to this equation.  
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studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

mgod

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Re: 47FET substitute??
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2007, 01:59:51 PM »

Barry Hufker wrote on Sat, 13 October 2007 10:02

Then I wonder why it's no longer in production...

Because the company no longer exists. David is starting over on his own.

J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 13 October 2007 11:48

Imagine if you went into a big studio, and the best mic in their locker was a U87.  It would be laughable.

That's not very uncommon anymore. We're a little spoiled living here, but even here some of the more recent studios, built (or bought) in the last 10 or 15 years, often don't have more than one mic better than an 87. Not naming names, but I bring my mics with me if needed.

DS
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Arf! Mastering

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Re: 47FET substitute??
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2007, 02:40:29 PM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Sun, 14 October 2007 12:58

Arf! Mastering wrote on Sat, 13 October 2007 18:37

It would seem that Neumann could do short runs of special vintage recreations.  They did so with the U67 reissue and it sold out. (Although they had all the parts on hand.)


My understanding was that they did so using left over parts.  I think that makes a difference to this equation.  


Right, and I said so in my post, but look at what Wunder has turned out.  If those mics were badged and sold by Neumann, people would be singing from the rafters.
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"Large signals can actually be counterproductive.  If I scream at you over the phone, you don’t hear me better. If I shine a bright light in your eyes, you don’t see better.”
Dr. C.T. Rubin, biomechanical engineer

Barry Hufker

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Re: 47FET substitute??
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2007, 03:03:29 PM »

I understand David's starting (started) a new company.  I wonder why he isn't producing this model?  First things first or does he not own the design?

Barry
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: 47FET substitute??
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2007, 05:42:03 PM »

Arf! Mastering wrote on Sun, 14 October 2007 11:40

...but look at what Wunder has turned out.  If those mics were badged and sold by Neumann, people would be singing from the rafters.


Alan, In keeping with the policies of this forum, please share your personal experience with this mic. A global praise from 'the rafters' is too vague.

Thanks,
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Klaus Heyne
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Arf! Mastering

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Re: 47FET substitute??
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2007, 06:17:24 PM »

Although AES is a tough place to check mics, I did bring a known set of phones and my own voice, and that is how I've tested mics for many years.  Having a number of original M49s of my own as a familiar reference, I found Wunder's offering of an historically accurate M49 to sound extremely close to my originals.  I was also impressed enough with their CM7-GT/M7 to buy the floor model from Mike at the end of the show.  It's not an historical recreation, but it had the air and appeal of what I look for in a vintage tube mic, and the remote pattern control is a great feature giving the mic a versatility along the lines of an M49 or M269.
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“A working class hero is something to be,
Keep you doped with religion and sex and T.V.”
John Lennon

"Large signals can actually be counterproductive.  If I scream at you over the phone, you don’t hear me better. If I shine a bright light in your eyes, you don’t see better.”
Dr. C.T. Rubin, biomechanical engineer

rphilbeck

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Re: 47FET substitute??
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2007, 12:17:20 AM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Sun, 14 October 2007 12:57



Klaus answered this.  In the last 20 years, they have not designed a mic with a transformer.  This was specifically my point.


Thank you for clarifying your earlier incorrect statement, which suggested Neumann doesn't make a transformer based mic.

Quote:

Who can blame them?  Well, try listening to their new mics against their old ones.  And they  DON'T have the upper end covered.  If they did, people would be buying TLM49s and not spending upwards of $6,000 on vintage U47s.


Can you confirm the sales figures for the TLM149?  I didn't know Neumann released this info to the public. Furthermore, how do you know why people buy U47s?  Have you done some kind of mass market research on that topic?  I have not, but common sense tells me that people buy U47's for reasons other than finding the current Neumann production line unsatisfying.


 
Quote:

And the "for the money" argument doesn't work.  If I'm making a record, and I'm renting a studio for $1,200 and up,


$1,200 a day does NOT qualify as a studio on a "TIGHT BUDGET" as I indicated would be a fit for something like the TLM-103.  
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Eric H.

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Re: 47FET substitute??
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2007, 07:52:45 AM »

Barry Hufker wrote on Sun, 14 October 2007 20:03

I understand David's starting (started) a new company.  I wonder why he isn't producing this model?  First things first or does he not own the design?

Barry


That's what I find the most upsetting about today's mic market.
There is a new brand every week, there is no stability of the models. I haven't even got a chance to try the iFet7 that its already out of production.
The big brands are more stable but their products seem less and less interesting.

Very confusing.
Hope David Bock will still make good mics for all of us.
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eric harizanos

Eric H.

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Re: 47FET substitute??
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2007, 08:05:11 AM »

I once asked on the Neumann forum why they discontinued their tube models (U67 M49 etc...) I thought it was because of tube shortage, but couldn't see why they discontinued the U47fet and the KM8x line of product that people still like today?

The response was that the tube mics were not discontinued because of tube shortages but because sound techs were very pleased with just having to use the phantom power to make their mics work. The practical aspect of things was apparently the explanation of the death of their tube mics.

As for discontinuing the fet mics, I was answered that they were retired of production because they didn't sell anymore.
Shocked  Shocked  Shocked

quite interesting indeed that because these mics didn't sell, people went buying mics other places.
The good thing is that this behaviour permitted a lot of people to live on the mic market, be it remaking vintage mics or selling classic mics or maintaining old mics.

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