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[Jerry Tubb]

present wrote on Thu, 24 August 2006 07:08

I have a hunch this squeezing-out-the-last-drop business may become some sort of perverted science.

may?

what about ~ has ~ ?

Of course I'm guilty has the next ME.

Last night I had a band in for a session, great rock music, I pushed the level harder than I would have preferred... and they got what they wanted, after it was finished all smiles.

JT

[mcsnare]

Andy, I haven't heard the new Muse record, but I loved the last one.
Dave

[Andy Krehm]

mcsnare wrote on Thu, 24 August 2006 18:31

Andy, I haven't heard the new Muse record, but I loved the last one. Dave

One of my clients brought it in for reference and it sounded very distorted to me, at least the track that was chosen.

The clipping the converter technique was used. I think I measured square waves of 12 samples but I just had a quick look. I don't personally use that technique but I have heard some CDs where it sounded OK but this track is quite dirty.

It just blew away the other loud refs we used, The Killers was one, and I always thought that was really loud! To my client's credit, he was OK going with a lower volume lower than the Muse track.

I'm not big on judging music by RMS or peak levels as they don't tell the whole story. Best to listen!

Andy,

Silverbirch Productions

www.silverbirchprod.com

[Thomas W. Bethel]

One of my clients brought it in for reference and it sounded very distorted to me, at least the track that was chosen.


I'm not big on judging music by RMS or peak levels as they don't tell the whole story. Best to listen!

Andy,

Silverbirch Productions

www.silverbirchprod.com

I am a listen and judge type person and just listened to the MUSE CD tonight at Borders on really bad Koss headphones and it sounded like dirty digital that had been super compressed. I can't imagine what it would sound like on a good system. And no I did not buy the CD.

[Sevendogs]

I really hate the sound on new MUSE album also.  Sound digitally clipped all the time.  Have to stop listening to the cd after the fourth song.

What about the new Michael Buble album sounds like ?  I think it is too loud also.  I constantly changed the volume.  When I turn up to hear enough vocal it is too loud.  

Too bad  

[Andy Krehm]

Sevendogs wrote on Wed, 11 July 2007 02:49

I really hate the sound on new MUSE album also.  Sound digitally clipped all the time.  Have to stop listening to the cd after the fourth song. What about the new Michael Buble album sounds like ?  I think it is too loud also.  I constantly changed the volume.  When I turn up to hear enough vocal it is too loud.   Too bad

That Michael Buble observation reminds me of some testing I did a couple of years ago.

On one of my rare 4 hour car trips, I took a variety of CDs with me so I could listen to how they sounded in the car.

One of them was an old Peggy Lee recording. While driving at highway speeds in a nice sedan with AC (not alternating current), all I could hear was the vocal. I wanted to hear the bass and the other instruments better so I turned it up but the vocal got too loud and piercing. Back in my living room I observed that it was a vocal heavy mix but you could still hear everything in a relatively quiet environment.

So I think the moral of this story is that the listening environments have gotten noisier which is ONE of the reasons why CDs are mastered the way they are.  The other, of course, is the competition and the "HEY LOOK AT ME" aspect and that won't be reversed until it becomes bad taste and poor judgement to take buzz saw to mixes!

Because the listening environments are so unpredictable these days, I happen to believe there is a happy medium somewhere in the middle where music can be mastered to a decent level but still have a good dynamic feel. Of course the style of music greatly affects the approach but I don't believe we are ever going back to the "Old Days".

[masterhse]

Masterer wrote on Thu, 24 August 2006 11:14

Pussies.

Odd thing though, once you turn down a hypercompressed album to the same apparent level as one that isn't, which one sounds more pussy-like?

Hypercompression make the artist and their music more "disposable" to me somehow.

[bigaudioblowhard]

Andy Krehm wrote on Wed, 11 July 2007 07:00

... On one of my rare 4 hour car trips, I took a variety of CDs with me so I could listen to how they sounded in the car. One of them was an old Peggy Lee recording. While driving at highway speeds in a nice sedan with AC (not alternating current), all I could hear was the vocal. I wanted to hear the bass and the other instruments better so I turned it up but the vocal got too loud and piercing. Back in my living room I observed that it was a vocal heavy mix but you could still hear everything in a relatively quiet environment. So I think the moral of this story is that the listening environments have gotten noisier which is ONE of the reasons why CDs are mastered the way they are.  The other, of course, is the competition and the "HEY LOOK AT ME" aspect and that won't be reversed until it becomes bad taste and poor judgement to take buzz saw to mixes! Because the listening environments are so unpredictable these days, I happen to believe there is a happy medium somewhere in the middle where music can be mastered to a decent level but still have a good dynamic feel. Of course the style of music greatly affects the approach but I don't believe we are ever going back to the "Old Days".

Which Peggy Lee, on Capitol?

I'm basically okay with compressed CD's for the reasons you describe. But severe clipping is truly annoying. Though I also don't believe we are going backwards (name one endeavor in which we are) I would say I've had fewer requests for loud CD's recently. A regular client who deals exclusively with British producers claims some of them are really pushing for headroom these days. The last batch of stuff he sent me was so dynamic and low it took quite a bit of compression just to get it near modern levels. When I turned it in, I found I was defending my decisions.


bab

[Bob Vosgien]

Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Wed, 23 August 2006 18:01

I just listened to the Josh Groban album mastered by Vlado Meller (better know to some as Vlad the Impaler) the average to peak ratio was -1.78 to -.1 dBFS for the peaks (I used Wavelab to get the stats). That is just ridiculous. Oh well I will go back and listen to some old James Taylor CDs to relax my ears. When is this all going to END......ARG!

Unless you heard what the source sounded like, It's pure speculation on your part to blame the level on this CD on Vlado. With the loudness wars starting in the mix room these days, there have been MANY mixes I've had to turn DOWN before I could do anything to them.

You're also talking about a  master that was approved by the producer, label and most likely the artist, so chances are Vlado did exacly what they wanted.

Is't Josh Groban the guy who sings that song "You turn me up" anyways?

[Thomas W. Bethel]

Bob Vosgien wrote on Fri, 20 July 2007 17:37

Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Wed, 23 August 2006 18:01 I just listened to the Josh Groban album mastered by Vlado Meller (better know to some as Vlad the Impaler) the average to peak ratio was -1.78 to -.1 dBFS for the peaks (I used Wavelab to get the stats). That is just ridiculous. Oh well I will go back and listen to some old James Taylor CDs to relax my ears. When is this all going to END......ARG! Unless you heard what the source sounded like, It's pure speculation on your part to blame the level on this CD on Vlado. With the loudness wars starting in the mix room these days, there have been MANY mixes I've had to turn DOWN before I could do anything to them. You're also talking about a  master that was approved by the producer, label and most likely the artist, so chances are Vlado did exactly what they wanted. Is't Josh Groban the guy who sings that song "You turn me up" anyways?

I was not "blaming" anyone but Vlad is known for his over the top mastering.

I was trying to say that the loudness wars HAVE to end because there is no where else to get more level we are already using all the tools like clipping the A to D converters, limiting and compression and people still want it louder.

When everything is all 11111111's where do you get more level from?

As one of my clients says "they will just have to raise the O dBFS another 12 points so we can get more level on the CD"


As my 13 year old niece would say "WHATEVER"