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Author Topic: Public Question for Gasman, or anyone really  (Read 2982 times)

exit

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Public Question for Gasman, or anyone really
« on: April 23, 2004, 04:05:32 pm »

Gasman-At the recpit I had discussed a room I'm helping get built and installed (SSL 6056E/G). I was inquiring about mains, who could help in getting them built & installed. You offered your services, which was great, but I do have the guy who did the room on hand ready to install whatever we get. My question publicly (in hopes to help others too) is this: I was gonna have Coco, the guy well-known for tuning rooms, to come by and "shoot the room" and make suggestions as too what mains to purchase. My time is winding down for console install (7 wks) and I don't think getting him here is gonna happen. How do I properly go about choosing the right mains? I'm a competent engineer, but this is something I'm a little timid about. We're looking at the typical Augspurger setup 2 15"s and horn on each side, or maybe a Quested system, or possibly the Westlake BBSM-15's.

I know it may seem wierd to you guys that this stuff wasn't decided earlier, but when I hooked up with this crew of people, the room had already been built. They kinda didn't know what they were doing so I've taken control, to make sure everything comes out right.

All insight is greatly appreciated!
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exit

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Re: Public Question for Gasman, or anyone really
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2004, 04:08:10 pm »

By the way, don't know how I forgot....

Welcome George. It's a pleasure to have you here. This place is off to a great start.
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Erik

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Re: Public Question for Gasman, or anyone really
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2004, 08:06:41 pm »

exit wrote on Fri, 23 April 2004 16:05

We're looking at the typical Augspurger setup 2 15"s and horn on each side, or maybe a Quested system, or possibly the Westlake BBSM-15's.


My first concern is that you haven't provided any details of the room the speakers are going into (or, perhaps more importantly) the clientele you're looking to please.

For starters, how large is the room?

Are you doing pure music?  Are video clients a consideration?  What about surround?

My second concern is that the speakers you mention are kinda "Mix Magazine class of '94" choices.

How are the speakers going to be mounted?  What construction has been performed?  The soffit issue is as big a consideration as the monitor at this point.  How much room do you have?

You're spending enough money here that you need to work a relationship so you can try some things out.  This can either be through an acoustician/contractor or a high-end retailer if you insist on going the DIY route.

The larger ADAM speakers (S5/S6) are certainly worth a consideration.  

ATC is also a brand worth mentioning.  I say this not because I like them (I hate them, actually) but because some people have a passion for them, and they'll be paying your bills, not me.

They're really f-ing bright but perhaps that's what you need to please people who've spent 15+ years mixing way too loud on mains.

My advice: make sure you've got the room designed properly to accomodate mid-fields as well and look into the smaller ADAMs.  A well-integrated pair of mid-fields will earn you a lot of forgiveness (and a lot of clients) while you sort out the big boys.

--Erik
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exit

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Re: Public Question for Gasman, or anyone really
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2004, 09:10:33 pm »

I know it was a bit unspecific. The room is music only, owned by a successful hip hop producer. As far as the monitors, I mentioned speakers he and I are both familiar and happy with. I've worked on Augspergers my whole careeer. Why change? You guys make plug-ins for old gear don't you? Anyhoo-I guess I'm looking more specifically for advice on where/who to go for help. I'm in a tough spot, because these guys want a nice room, but of course don't wanna pay what it's going to cost. I've convinced them that the mains are an item we can't cut corners on, but I can't break the bank either.

Bottom line is I need to make a decision soon so they can be ordered and the room can be prepared. (There were no holes left for the monitors. Gonna have to redo the walls.) Kinda sucks that they went this far in construction before I arrived and started helping.

I will go ahead and post specs to the room and details about the design. Hopefully my R/E/P friends will chime in.

Peace!
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Mark *exit* Goodchild

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4count

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Re: Public Question for Gasman, or anyone really
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2004, 09:40:28 pm »

I have the same problem but I have soffits from previous Tannoys. My solution is to build some boxes with twin 15" a 5" mid and a 1" tweeter and triamp the entire room using a DBX Drive Rack. Im not sure if the studio one will do what I want but Im familiar with the Drive Rack PA. It allows me to shoot the room and set the monitors up the way I want them.    
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Bill Mueller

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Re: Public Question for Gasman, or anyone really
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2004, 10:18:14 pm »

Wow, it is a bit strange that a control room has been build with no arrangements for the mains. Can I suggest that before you begin modifying the front wall that you consider the Mid-field-mounted-on-columns approach until you know the room better. I have seen many Mains systems that ended up as conversations pieces (Do you ever turn those things on? No!).

Building your mains into proper soffits is certainly the way to go eventually but you are about to make a decision that could last 20 years with very little preparation. Mounting mid fields on colums could get you up and running with a minimum of fuss. I have actually built concrete colums for mains monitors (including spring machine isolators) (in a damn blizzard no less!). This is less trouble than tearing out the ceiling a few times trying to get the mains correct, and the mids will be at ear level which is good.

Can I also suggest that since you know what kind of music you are going to be doing that you find the best hip hop recording you have ever heard, visit the studio that did it and steal everything but their ash trays. Figuratively speaking of course.

MHO,

Best Regards,

Bill

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exit

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Re: Public Question for Gasman, or anyone really
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2004, 04:50:33 pm »

Bill Mueller wrote on Sat, 24 April 2004 22:18

Wow, it is a bit strange that a control room has been build with no arrangements for the mains. Can I suggest that before you begin modifying the front wall that you consider the Mid-field-mounted-on-columns approach until you know the room better. I have seen many Mains systems that ended up as conversations pieces (Do you ever turn those things on? No!).


There ins't room for speakers on stands. When I became involved in this process, the room had been built, the SSL purchased. That's as far as they were. I got the measurements of the board (I worked on that particular board for 6 yrs), and marked it out in the control room. With relationship to the where the board will sit and where the credenza will be, there is no room for sturdy speaker stands. They have to go in the wall. I'm planning on mounting them to the ceiling itself behind the wall slightly. So the face of them will be partially flush with wall. (Reason being for ceiling mount is that I feel if they are attached to wall that building will fall apart when they are on. Whole different story!)

Quote:

Can I also suggest that since you know what kind of music you are going to be doing that you find the best hip hop recording you have ever heard, visit the studio that did it and steal everything but their ash trays. Figuratively speaking of course.


I've worked on some great hip hop recordings and worked in most of the rooms that any others were done. I've been steadily, figuratively stealing every idea I liked for years!

Moving on-Here are the room dimensions. I'm officially taking opinions on mains.

Width at front=17'3"
Width at rear=18'1"
Deep=20'
Ceiling=10' sloping down to about 9'2" at front of room
Credenza will be sitting appx 10' back from front wall. Will be granite top.

There is a 4" elevation in the back of room for couches, etc. The walls in front are more than 3' deep. I know there is room to cut out the wall, hang the speakers, and patch up the wall just by looking at it by eye. Hardwoods where console and credenza are. Carpeted behind credenza to rear of room. Room is actually pretty dead. Don't know what he did behind the fabric on the walls, but did pretty good job.

Shoot!
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RdKAudio

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Re: Public Question for Gasman, or anyone really
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2004, 02:17:57 am »

I just install a pair of genelec 1038A's and a 7071 sub in a similar sized room in Atlanta. The small size of the 1038's made them very easy to soffit mount.
If you'd like to check out this setup let me know.

Ruairi Kilcullen
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exit

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Re: Public Question for Gasman, or anyone really
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2004, 03:04:40 pm »

I appreciate the offer. I don't think it will be necessary but I will keep it in mind.

Thanks
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barefoot

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Re: Public Question for Gasman, or anyone really
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2004, 05:35:37 pm »

Mark,

Well, you're actually in a relatively good position because the soffit openings aren't built yet.   This gives you a lot of flexibility.  One thing you might consider is the modular soffit design I developed.  I've posted an outline describing it over at the  Recording Studio Design Forum (you have to register to see the images).   It gives you more flexibility to upgrade the mains in the future, if you ever feel the need.   I also offers some acoustic advantages by decoupling the speakers from the soffit wall.  

You have a decent sized control room, but not huge.   The listing distances are also reasonable.  So, unless you want ear-bleeding levels, you don't necessarily need "mega output" mains.   Listening distances and acoustic power considerations are important because they can influence your decision about which speakers to get.  One of the primary things that is different about mains versus midfields and nearfields is the crossover design.   Mains tend to have sharper slopes and higher crossover frequencies.  This allows them to handle more power.   The downside is this produces much poorer off-axis response characteristics and a narrower "sweet spot".   Typical mains rely on long distances in order to achieve reasonably wide listening windows.   In many cases this works out fine for the clients sitting in the back, but it's too narrow at the desk position.  This is one reason why I believe mains are often dismissed as being not useful for day-to-day monitoring.   Considering your room size, you might opt for speakers with somewhat more modest power output and superior dispersion.  

Thomas
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exit

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Re: Public Question for Gasman, or anyone really
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2004, 02:21:01 am »

Thomas, that forum is gonna be of great use to me. Stank you for leading me toward it. Do you wanna make a particular recommendation of speakers? I'm looking at the ATC's and ADAMs. 2 people have pointed me in that direction. Unfortunately I don't ever remember working on them so I don't know what I would be getting myself into. I'm leaning toward Quested....
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Mark *exit* Goodchild

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barefoot

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Re: Public Question for Gasman, or anyone really
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2004, 11:07:52 am »

exit wrote on Tue, 27 April 2004 23:21

Thomas, that forum is gonna be of great use to me. Stank you for leading me toward it. Do you wanna make a particular recommendation of speakers?.....

Yeah, John's site is a truly outstanding resource!

As far as specific product recommendations go, I don't do that on these forums.   I'm not in the position to be unbiased.   Though, I am happy to give my opinions about general design approaches and/or specific technical aspects of certain systems.  And I have been known on occasion to point out ones  who, I believe, are doing something patently offensive! Wink

Thomas
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gasman

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Re: Public Question for Gasman, or anyone really
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2004, 06:58:31 pm »

What's up Exit, sorry I've been absentee for a bit, I'm busy with beaver...er...busy as a beaver...whatev.

Unfortunately I cannot comment on many if not all hi-end designs/systems, as I have not been lucky enough to listen to 'em. Possibly never will. So aside from touting my own capabilities, I'm frickin' useless.

But I will recommend, after getting "reference-flat"-claiming boxes, to just shoot the room, and apply control methods as usual, rather than getting boxes to match your room quirks...I know, I know, groundbreaking advice...kinda all you can do if you can't build the walls from scratch...

Remember modal nodes won't exist if that wavelength doesn't bounce. Helmholtz's sure look cool, but sometimes just building angled surfaces onto walls post-construction will kill a mode right there. And boost others. Whatever. Holla!

GM

PS Soffit monitors will vibrate everything unless decoupled properly, I've just glued rubber cabinet feet between the cabs and joists/framery to isolate boxes...roof felt to vinyl dampening to asphalt sheets to frickin' bubble wrap, whatever as long as wood don't meet wood...


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exit

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Re: Public Question for Gasman, or anyone really
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2004, 02:11:00 am »

Thanks my peoples. I basically gonna find something that looks cool.........

No, really. I'm just gonna find what fits in my budget and put 'em in. Then go from there.  You will all be kept abreast....
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Mark *exit* Goodchild

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gasman

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Re: Public Question for Gasman, or anyone really
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2004, 09:21:51 am »

Whaddup, part two. As in I gots two queries...A: Are the "mains" to be floor-or-stand-standing or soffit mounted? B: What kinda power are you gonna feed 'em?

A treated, laid+splayed 20'x20' room as such, I'd say a nice pair of 8" mtm's stand-mounted in the corners would give you plenty of mid-hi spl with no more than 100w a side, with a 15" sub getting @250w as a endtable for your rapstar's couch. For extra pimp-points...add some bass shakers. For those mains I actually have a mtm design as such I've recently finished, and they LOOK dope as fuck, rockin the ribbon tweet, too. Under $1k a pair. If you don't PM me, your loss. If not for the mains, for the sub...

My services are available for anyone requiring speaker anything.

Science!

GM

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