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Author Topic: Audible Microphone Cable Changes  (Read 47558 times)

maxdimario

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Re: Audible microphone cable changes
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2007, 05:36:43 AM »

one thing I've noticed with multi-strand wire is that the individual strands do touch each other and therefore make contact but not always in the same fashion.

oxide, pressure, tightness of winding make a difference, especially in old wire.

a good example are 'crackly' guitar cords from the 60's..

so to me ultimate sound is solid wire...
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rodabod

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Re: Audible microphone cable changes
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2007, 07:39:31 AM »

Barry Hufker wrote on Thu, 21 June 2007 18:42

Roddy,

I respect your opinion, please tell me what you "don't get" as I'd be very interested.



Hi Barry,

Well, for me, I'm not convinced it adds up on paper. We have a typical mic preamp with say, 1.2K input impedance and a mic source of say, 200 Ohms. Looking at the DC resistance values firstly, we are not going to experience any significant losses. As for impedance, do we have capacitance values for these example cables? I'm kind of doubtful that the resultant frequency response is going to make a huge difference.

Having said that, I've not had a chance to use any of these exotic cables. I think I have probably been put off the whole cables argument by the HiFi world where there is a lot of snake oil!

You could always analyse a reel of cable by measuring its frequency response at a given source and load impedance. Otherwise, a blind listening test could work, although I've never been too sure about that method for various reasons.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Audible microphone cable changes
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2007, 11:18:25 AM »

Roddy,

I have been as skeptical as you.  I am no believer in the mystical wires of hifi.  Yet, I've heard real differences with these two microphone cables (and actually with other wires before).  I've been ready to explain it with the usual technical reasons -- capacitance, etc. but can't in this setup.  I don't think the wires have to be exotic to hear some difference for better or worse.

I suppose the point of this thread for me is not are there wires providing a different sound, but I don't believe our current (pun) technical understanding can explain the reasons why the differences exist.  Decades ago I heard the sound of different capacitors, etc. in audio circuits.  I suppose it's only reasonable to hear it in wires...

Barry

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David Bock

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Re: Audible microphone cable changes
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2007, 01:41:34 PM »

Quote:

one thing I've noticed with multi-strand wire is that the individual strands do touch each other and therefore make contact but not always in the same fashion, oxide, pressure, tightness of winding make a difference, especially in old wire.

Absolutely true.
You probably also noticed irregular oxidation of that wire.
It reminds me of how many broken (or a molecule away from being broken) wires I've found in U47's and M49's. Almost always at a bend in the wire or solder junction, sometimes still in the jacket.
Quote:

so to me ultimate sound is solid wire...

Not too practical, kind of like a Lowther. Good in theory but doesn't play out in practice.

The other option is Litz wire, and several people make audio cable based on this. You get the use advantages of stranded without any of the oxidation.
Some makers go to great lengths to maintain exact conductor vs. insulation through the run of the cable as well.

And then there is the issue of the insulation itself, which is too large a debate for me to get involved in, other than to say that in products I've built, manufactured & tested it CAN make a difference in both mic and line level applications.

BTW I'm also not debating solid vs stranded as I have NO (!) experience with solid core cable as far as I know, other than.....phone lines?

regards,
David Bock

Mike Cleaver

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Re: Audible microphone cable changes
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2007, 03:07:37 PM »

Back in the day, a lot of solid core wire was used in broadcasting because that's what the telephone companies used.
However, it was only used where it would not be subject to any movement.
In later years, stranded wire became more common before everything moved to pc boards.
Solid copper open pair often was used to connect the telephone central office to the transmitter site and sometimes from the studio direct to the transmitter, often strung along with telegraph wires beside the railway tracks.
You'd pump out enough db at the station to end up with plus 8 at the transmitter site.
At my first station, we had an RCA BA6A putting about plus 24 into the transmitter line to get plus 8 at the site.
That solid copper sounded great back then, a lot better than the minuscule stuff used today along with amplification and equalizers to get the required line frequency response.
About the only thing that was ever added to the open copper pair were WE 111C repeat coils at each end.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Audible microphone cable changes
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2007, 10:55:28 PM »

I have tried to provide more subjective as well as objective information by posting some items on my website.  There you'll find two sound examples.

  http://www.hufkerrecording.com/microphone%20cable%20test.htm l#Cable_Sound_Samples

The first is me speaking into a U47FET, first using one cable and then the second.  Outside of that, all is identical.  The file consists of both samples.  See if you can tell at which number I made the edit between the two.  I will say that when the files were converted to MP3 some of the distinctions were lost.  But there is a subtle change.

The second is an excerpt from a live choral recording.  You can read the setup for this on the webpage.  The ticks or pops you'll hear are the conductor's shoes!  The building's air conditioning blower is on and it begins to rain (although the rain isn't in this excerpt).

After that I've posted a frequency sweep from 20 Hz to 20 kHz.  This setup was monitor speaker to U47, then as for the speech test.  The frequency plots are from Spectrafoo.  I've done them in sections in an attempt to get the clearest picture for each frequency band.  The yellow plot is of the Gotham GAC3 (the two conductor with shield).  The red plot is "Cable X".  Gee I love the intrigue of writing "cable X".  It is so mysterious!

See and hear and let us know.

Barry

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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Audible microphone cable changes
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2007, 03:59:13 AM »

We've had a few cable threads here before. All of them were unsatisfying for me as a reader and poster:

Arguments about objective criteria or their lack were put forth. Next came the point that every cable sounds the same, and it was all audiophile hogwash/hubris.

Then there was speculation as to the best/worst conductor/sleeve/shield material and shape, and how that was supposed to be the reason for the superior/inferior performance of the cable in question.

In the end, not much was gained by the reader- irrefutable facts he could take to the bank - so the whole exercise did never live up to the level of discussion seen here when it comes to microphones.

I see two ways to avoid a repeat show of that murky past:

1. Try to be extra respectful of someone else's differing opinion about a cable's sound when you post.

2. If you cannot cite a scientifically acceptable measurement correlation (f.ex. a line capacitance of 1500pf in a 30ft cable cannot possibly yield a frequency balanced cable) or if you cannot cite empirical, commonly agreed to data (of the subjective type we seem to readily accept in mics like a U47, CMC5 or 251, but somehow deem below the pale when discussing cables) then don't bother trying to convince the reader of the validity of your opinion. Instead, simply and specifically state what you like or do not like about a cable.

That last bit is much more valuable to me than trying to give respectability to your subjective opinion with citations of pseudo science. It gives me a starting point- I then can compare your results to what I have tested in the past.

So let me try to live and post by my own rules:

I just posted about starting to supply my restored/modified mics with Gotham's GAC3 (same as Neumann's IC3) as interconnects.

Why?

1. I found them to be always top of class in RF suppression, when comparing them to any otehr commonly available balanced line cable.

2. I found them to be least objectionable in what they do to the sound of a mic. A bit too slender in the bass, not as robust in the lower mids as my dream cable would be, but the rest I can very well live with: very little congestion in the upper mids, and smooth transitions from one frequency band to the next, throughout the audio spectrum.

Despite my past loyalties to Gotham's GAC 3 and GAC7 (tube mic) cables, I am always looking, and quite willing to replace Gotham tomorrow with a brand and type of cable that does the job better still.

Let me know what in your opinion that superior cable might be (hopefully readily available, and in a price range a mortal can afford!) and I trust my instinct to recognize when the light starts flashing...


Best regards,
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Schallfeldnebel

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Re: Audible microphone cable changes
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2007, 07:50:22 AM »

Is the first part 1-6 the good cable, and from 7 the Gotham?

Der Schallfeldwebel
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Audible microphone cable changes
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2007, 10:19:20 AM »

Klaus,

Thanks for the comments.  I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, in case I've confused the issue.  I've been trying to spark an interest in this discussion by providing some graphs and sound samples for general interest.

My comments have hopefully been: "Here's a cable.  I think there's a sonic difference.  Come listen for yourself.  Take a look at the graphs and see if you can determine anything significant from them."  I've used a well-know microphone for the speech example -- the Neumann U-47FET, as I don't have a U-47.  I know there is a huge difference between the two microphones but it is possible people are familiar with the FET.

For me, the difference between the Gotham wire and the test cable is an issue of "smoothness".  And I'm not sure how I feel about this.  For me, I can see the quality as another flavor when miking something but I'm not sure I'd choose it all the time.

With regard to specs, I've posted what I can.  I don't have access to the capacitance data for all the wires.

It may be that this thread has now run its course -- and that's fine.

The "test cable" is Accusound's new "Silver Pro".  I've avoided the brand to this point so there wouldn't be any bias going into this discussion.  With regard to price, the retail is: $140.00 USD for a 20 cable, with a reasonable discount available.

Again, my hope has been to say "here's something interesting".  I don't care about convincing people one way or the other.  In the interest of "let's expose ourselves to all we can, here is this."

Erik,

You've identified where the edit is.  Great work!  The numbers 1-6 are Gotham.  7 through 11 are Accusound.  In MP3 it's a tough call.  The difference is more noticeable at 24 bits and 96kHz.

What I find about the Accusound is that it sounds maybe a bit less nasal and possibly more open.  But I feel as tho' it smears sounds together.  Again, I'm not convinced these qualities show up in the MP3, but that's the best I could post.  The MP3 is at the highest quality the encoder allows me to produce.

Barry
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maxdimario

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Re: Audible microphone cable changes
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2007, 11:13:34 AM »

I heard the mp3's

the last part of the numbers is clearer to me
choral from 57 seconds onwards is also clearer
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Audible microphone cable changes
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2007, 11:26:26 AM »

Thanks Max for taking time to listen!

B
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Schallfeldnebel

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Re: Audible microphone cable changes
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2007, 12:02:49 PM »

Frankly speaking, I assumed the good cable was 1-6 because I experienced it as the "better" sound. Now I know that is the Gotham, I still keep my opinion the same. Off course the MP3 takes away a lot, and my opinion has to be taken with a grain of salt. But....

for anyone who still has doubts if cables have a sonic influence on a recording, my detection of the right spot prooves there is more than L, C and R.

Der Schallfeldwebel

Erik Sikkema
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Audible microphone cable changes
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2007, 12:46:42 PM »

Barry,
You did a fine job with your approach to cable comparisons/evaluations. I have no complaints.

However, the identification of the Gotham cable you used is a bit mysterious to me. You wrote:

Quote:

 I tested "Cable X" (my name for it) as well as I could, comparing its resistance with others I own: Gotham "star quad", Gotham "regular" (2 conductors and a shield)...


and then:
Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 22 June 2007 19:55

... The yellow plot is of the Gotham GAC3 (the two conductor with shield).


GAC 3 is a three conductor + Double layer Reussen shield configuration. And, as far as I know, the company does not make a star quad (2 twisted pairs + shield) configuration. Please clarify what cable you actually used in your tests.

Thanks,
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Klaus Heyne
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Audible microphone cable changes
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2007, 01:40:05 PM »

Thank you Klaus.  You're are correct I should have clarified my identification of the Gotham cable.  Apparently I am something of a mess when it comes to Gotham's model numbers.  The wire I refer to is (as near as I can determine) a GAC-2.  It has 2 conductors (brown to pin 3 and white to pin 2) with a copper multi-strand shield.  I purchased it from Neumann 20 years ago or so but it is still in excellent condition.  This is the cable I used in the speech comparison.

I can't find in my emails the discussion I had with Lewis Frisch so we must have talked by phone.  The cable we discussed is GAC-4/1. This was quite some time ago so I know the moment I say "well Lewis said it could be used that way" is the moment you and he both correct me.  So I won't.

Gotham does not list GAC4/1 as a star quad cable.  EDIT: Yes it does.  See post below.

This however was the cable I used in the music comparison.  There is no music example of the Gotham cable as I didn't record that.  I listened to the Gotham during a Saturday rehearsal and switched to the Accusound cable for the concert.  It was a that time I immediately noticed the difference.

Thank you Klaus for making me do better research.  But to be clear I stand by my sonic conclusions and the graphs I produced.  The graphs are of the Accusound cable and Gotham GAC-2.



Erik,

Of the two examples I find the Gotham cable to be more to my liking, although I think the Accusound has its place.

Barry
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Audible microphone cable changes
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2007, 02:41:13 PM »

It's unknown to me what the exact electrical and acoustic properties of a cable are when the common ground of a balanced line is achieved via a dedicated conductor (GAC3) instead of when it's done just throught the shield (which is of course made of different material/configuration as the signal carrying conductors.)

In any event, I understand that Gotham regards its GAC 3 as the flagship of their balanced mic/line interconnects.

Therefore it may be interesting for you to try a similar length of it and compare it to the GAC2 or 4/1. I at least heard a difference to the better...
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
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