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[megaphone]

As far as capsules positioning is concerned, I see nothing wrong with this picture. Now, I always thought the M microphone in an M/S setup had to be cardioid, which is not the case here as Barry pointed out (CMV 563 with M55K omni capsule). Am I wrong here?
G

[Barry Hufker]

G

[Plush]

I am pleased to see the picture posted here now.
...

My complaint is that classic m/s technique would require one to roll the whole arrangement up 90 degrees. You would still have the R84 giving you the left to right, and now the omni Gefell would fill in the center pointing at the back of the piano and picking up the overall sound, not the close miced sound of the strings.

These are two different approaches, one a poppy or jazzy style, and the one I'm oriented towards, a classical style.  

The one thing I do agree with in the picture is that an omni mic can often be a spectacular success in m/s technique.

[kats]

Quote:

You can't "copy" a track or signal on an analog desk (and maybe not a digital console). So while I can't speak for J.J., it seems to me this applies directly to a DAW.

What I do on a half normalled patchbay is feed to S signal into a third track - in essence making a copy. Then I just press the invert button.

[iCombs]

Plush wrote on Tue, 24 April 2007 10:06

...These are two different approaches, one a poppy or jazzy style and the one I'm oriented towards, a classical style.   An omni mic can often be a spectacular success in m/s technique.

This sounds like a debate over the application of a technique rather than a technique itself.  

I've seen pics of Bruce Swedien micing a Marshall cab m/s with 2 Royers that were touching the grill cloth.  There's no rule that says "you have to orient your mics this way."  

If you want a more open sound, then keep the mics up away from the strings.  If you want more attack and aggression, get the mics down in there!  I see no problem with JJ's micing technique, or its application in this instance.

[Gone]

Gunnar Hellquist wrote on Tue, 24 April 2007 00:28

I find it a bit odd to introduce the "copy and invert the S-signal" into an article for beginning users of M/S as audience. I know that is the way you had to do it on an analog mixer, but today just about everyone is using some kind of DAW. Then the first choice would instead be to recommend using a decoding plug-in.

Is it really necessary to 'dumb down' such a simple set-up even further? If you're an 'engineer', student of audio, or otherwise, and you can't grasp multing on a console or 'copy and invert' in a DAW, you probably should be doing something else...

Actually, I had the opposite reaction;
I'm always happy to see the ACTUAL technique presented, rather than the often-written: "Now, plug your two mics into a pre that has M/S decoding..." Give me a break!

[audibell]

I use M/S a lot, not just the main stereo pair. I would agree with Ealing if the Middle mic is an omni, because the side lobes of the AEA ribbon are approximate spheres, so as long as another mic collects sound from the front portion of the spheres, all will be well with the algebra (Mid + Side = (L+R) + (L-R) = 2L) and (Mid - Side = (L+R) - (L-R) = 2R)
However, if the Mid cardioid mic, whose lobes are much less spherical, is pointed along the longitudinal axis of the AEA "like two fingers" then I would expect the stereo image to be less successful.
I have found using an omni, km83 or gefell m294, in a dry smallish room preferable; in a stoney church, a cardiod gefell m300, has yielded better definition. I track all mics straight to recorder and un-matrix later in DAW but I monitor the split signal (usually unbalanced 2nd output from pre-amp) into a small mixer and use a phase reversed 12 inch patch for the side -ve signal;
A useful tip is to turn the Mid off, pan center the Side + and - signals and adjust the gain until you hear nothing: note the relative positions of the faders in case you have to go up or down. Now pan left & right for width: bring up the Mid until you have a pleasing stereo image in the L/R buss. Don't use the mixer to adjust the gains, use the outboard pres and you shouldn't have to re-adjust the side signals. If you can route the three signals to one Aux buss, then you can control the whole  thing w/one fader.
If you want to add another M/S pair, I've found it usually better to mix the side signals to taste first and then the Mids; then de-matrix the whole thing once. If you de-matrix to L & R first you'll run out of inputs & busses. You eventually learn to judge how a M/S signal will "pan out" just by judging the reverb-to-direct ratio but a $50 monitor-only mixer for each pair works & is a lot cheaper than a $500 decoder.
WT

[J.J. Blair]

WT, I don't remember if I mentioned that the sides should cancel when in mono, but that is precisely how I always adjust the side levels.  But I know that I said in the article that I like to bring the mid up in that mix to where if I sum to mono, I don't lose any over all level.

And personally, I always print my M/S tracks as a stereo track.  I don't leave that stuff for later.  But I'm always about less tracks, and committing to decisions.  But that's just me.  YMMV.

[davebl]

Im sure the set up sounds fine if your happy with the mic set up.

Id add that using diferent types of mic that have very different forms of capsule will not give result in a good M/S array that is mono compatible which is a major benifit of M/S mic arrays. The best M/S arrays use capsuels coming from the same family of mics eg Schoeps mk4 or 2 and a mk 8 or Sennheiser mkh series 20/30 or 40/30 pairs. As I see it the problem of using differnt types of capsuel is that any listener in Mono will result in only the M capsuels output. This assumes the M/S array is panned fully left and right. If it is narrowed down in the mix then the effect in mono would be less problematic.

Dave Blackham
UK

[Barry Hufker]

I hope there is no one listening in mono anymore.  And I wouldn't accommodate that (one) person!  I know mono compatibility is a good indicator that "all is well" technically but...

Barry

[Tomas Danko]

I agree.

So I've basically stopped going all the way to maintain great mono compatibility. I'm more interested in a nice stereo mix, and I think 99% of the times people listen to my stuff it will be in stereo anyway.

[kats]

I should point out that most restaurants, bars, and clubs run their systems in mono. In restaurants especially, they are running 6 - 12 speakers softly so as to keep an even balance across the room. In other venues, the shape and basic logistics  of the room demand a mono signal.

So I would have to say that not worrying about mono compatablity is selling your customer short. I would hazzard a guess that more than 75% of the time, the potential buyer of music heard it first on the radio, restaurant, lounge, or club. If your interested in making a good first impression I wouldn't discount 3 of the 4 locations I've mentioned above.

[davebl]

I agree that stereo may be the principle mixing format but for broadcasters mono compatibility is an essential requirement both for radio and TV. I hope that the next hits made are played on both mediums to a world wide audience but the mixer should IMHO avoid the possibility of any change in mix for listeners in mono or stereo. The main point I raise is to use the same family of capsuels in M/S arrays as best practice. For main pairs I feel this is essential for close micing as discussed then may be less so depending on how the M/S array is presented in the mix.

DAve Blackham
UK

[Barkley McKay]

Isn't Youtube mono only? More people are using that format now to promote  as well, so I'd still think it prudent.

barks

[J.J. Blair]

Here's a story as to why any mixes or any  stereo track you record should be checked in mono: The first major label record I did had a song with a solo where I re-amped an acoustic guitar through a Leslie, and mic'd the Leslie in X/Y.  I was young and didn't noticed that I have one X/Y out of phase.  I was sitting in a restaurant and that song came on over the sound system, which was comprised of mono feeds to the various speakers.  Needless to say, the solo wasn't there.  Oops!

IMO, always check for mono compatibility.  And yes, TV and AM ardio are another reason.