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Author Topic: Digital Split  (Read 6752 times)

philipp

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Digital Split
« on: October 09, 2006, 04:17:38 am »

I posted this in another forum where nobody seems to have an answer, so I ask you here:

I do live-recordings, usually with a PM5D, optical out 48 Channels into Pro Tools.
Last time, the (lacie!!) hard drive sucked, and it was very unpleasant to get DAE - error messages during recording. (F******)

I want to backup the recording, no wait, better, i want to record twice. One time into PT, one time to a whatever - Alesis or Fostex or some other kind of standalone HD-Recorder.

I want to have a PT Session immediately and want to give the clients their .wav files right after the show, but if there goes something wrong with it, I want at least to have a secure backup. So there was the idea of just splitting the adat optical signals.

Does exist some kind of Y-cable for optical?
Or have I to buy something like the RME ADI 648 to have the job done?

http://www.rme-audio.com/english/madi/adi648.htm

did I miss a alternative?

any advice? thank you very much!!

Philipp

Ronny

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Re: Digital Split
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2006, 07:39:54 am »

philipp wrote on Mon, 09 October 2006 04:17

I posted this in another forum where nobody seems to have an answer, so I ask you here:

I do live-recordings, usually with a PM5D, optical out 48 Channels into Pro Tools.
Last time, the (lacie!!) hard drive sucked, and it was very unpleasant to get DAE - error messages during recording. (F******)

I want to backup the recording, no wait, better, i want to record twice. One time into PT, one time to a whatever - Alesis or Fostex or some other kind of standalone HD-Recorder.

I want to have a PT Session immediately and want to give the clients their .wav files right after the show, but if there goes something wrong with it, I want at least to have a secure backup. So there was the idea of just splitting the adat optical signals.

Does exist some kind of Y-cable for optical?
Or have I to buy something like the RME ADI 648 to have the job done?

http://www.rme-audio.com/english/madi/adi648.htm

did I miss a alternative?

any advice? thank you very much!!

Philipp




I use Fostex D series HD-R's for live remotes and don't feel the need to record a second back up. Been using them for over 10 years now with thousands of recording and playback hours and knock on wood, never lost one note of critical music. They are that stable and I wish I could say the same thing about PC/Mac computer based recording and even analog tape for that matter. However if you want to record to PT and use an HD-R via optical sends for backup. You can route the MY8-AT or MY16-AT signals to the Fos first, than lightpipe to your PT rig from there, the signal will record in the HD-R's as it passes the signal to PT and records it there also. No Y's or adapters for this configuration and the PM5D's converters are used for both platforms as the D2424 will pass the same signal that it inputs when the tracks are armed.
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Malcolm Boyce

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Re: Digital Split
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2006, 01:25:41 pm »

As Ronnie said, that is the easiest way to do it.  Run through whatever your "backup" device of choice is to your ProTools rig.

That's one of those thinking out of sequence things where you're thinking backup after master, but in this case it makes no difference.
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compasspnt

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Re: Digital Split
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2006, 03:21:14 pm »


Until the backup fails.
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philipp

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Re: Digital Split
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2006, 06:59:24 pm »

Thank you for your thoughts alltogether. I didn't think of running thru the backup machine to PT indeed.

But how Terry mentioned I would like to have them both separated.
If i owned something like the Fostex  myself, i wouldnt mind trying it out. Years ago i did rent one (HD 24 I guess?)several times, asked for sure if the Disk was formatted, what they always confirmed, but once -  unfortunately  - wasn't the case, and after about 40 minutes of liverecording ...
(AAAAHRG... and as you might know, it isn't obvious how much free space of the hd is left on this particular fostex machine, and to format itself you have to write 0's for the hole disk space, takes hours!!)

I really would like to split up the signals if there isn't a problem with quality loss or Sync.

I was brought to this:

http://www.sommercable.com/2__default/index.html

or

http://www.z-sys.com/pp_routing.html

I also will have a UPS to be sure not to have problems of power failure.

I know, everything can fail sometimes, but with UPS and two totally separated recording systems there should be a good chance to get liverecordings for hours.

Does somebody have some expirience with that kind of splitters above, are there some sync-issues - especially when used a few of the passive (cheap) ones parallel, don't forget, for 48 Tracks I would need running 6 of them.

Malcolm Boyce

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Re: Digital Split
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2006, 07:36:37 pm »

compasspnt wrote on Mon, 09 October 2006 16:21


Until the backup fails.


Touche...

OK, if you're going that way:

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=toslink+optical+spli tter&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
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Ronny

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Re: Digital Split
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2006, 09:38:17 pm »

compasspnt wrote on Mon, 09 October 2006 15:21


Until the backup fails.



You might as well worry about the power company failing too. The only reason for having back up recorders is when you can't rely on the ones you have.

The HD24 is an Alesis HD-R and not the same stability as the D2424 which uses the same proprietary format that was developed by the guys from New England Digital, that made the first Synclavier HD-R. It does take a long time to format a drive for FDMS, it's about 10 gigs an hour, but once the drive is formatted for linear recording, you don't have the same problems that you have with PC/Mac based platforms. No CPU taxation, no defragging necessary as it's linear, no 4 gig wav size limits, none of the background programs running, just a device that was designed solely to record audio and not download your e-mail.
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philipp

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Re: Digital Split
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2006, 06:56:24 pm »

OK, thanks for that Ronny, so you use only one D 2424 (even without UPS) and thats it?

Is it easy to backup the files after recording? I've read you can import and export *wav-files. Via SCSI2 or Ethernet. Or do you burn DVD's right after the sssion?

Thank you very much for your answers

Philipp



Ronny

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Re: Digital Split
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2006, 10:18:31 am »



I've never used a UPS for anything including my studio and never had a problem, I also live on the outskirts of lightning alley near the GA-FL state line and have gone through many thunderstorms since I moved to this location in 1975, but Georgia Power is one of the best electric companies and I have all of my gear on their own breaker separate from ac, lights, microwave and coffee machine with isolated ground going to an 8 foot grounding rod sunk in the earth outside. The building lights and electricals are grounded to the water main via the water pipes in the building which isolates me from using the same ground.

The D2424 has two drive bays, I back up my multi-track studio and live remote recordings to 120 GB drives formatted in FDMS (Fostex Disk Management System) and final two track masters, clones of the PMCD's from my mastering service are stored on 80 GB's. My cost for the 120 GB's is 50 cents a gig to record or archive. If I want to edit in a DAW, I run real time all tracks or a combination of the ones that I want to work on, than transfer them back after editing, so I'm always mixing from the HD-R not a DAW program. The D series Fos HD-R's have had a feature that they implemented back in early 1996 that uses a sync tone to align tracks that are saved to outboard sources, such as SCSI, ADAT, AES or SPdif devices. In this regard I transfer any combinations of tracks to DAW's for editing and specific processing and back. For over 10 years, always sample for sample accurate and never had a track not line up perfectly using the sync tone save and load back. You can use whatever ports you support with that feature, ADAT and SPdif optical are stock, AES and Tdif optional, SCSI 2 is stock, so that you can transfer to DAW's via SCSI or with single drive bay units to external scsi drives.

You can format a drive for .wav in the D series HD-Rs, however that limits you to the file size limitations of .wav, there are no file size limitations with FDMS, it is rock solid dedicated to audio only linear recording format, so I could record one file to a 120 GB, although the recorder will disarm at 24 hours of straight recording time when the display turns over. The largest I typically get are about 20-25 gigs for a two hour show, though, running 44.1/24. Last concert I recorded was 13 to 18 tracks, 4 bands and used 55 gigs total. I sometimes turn the recorder on, let it run the whole time and than save the different shows to new song program slots back at the studio, using paste and move function, thus separating sets to their own programs next day after the event.

Transfer from the recording drive to the second drive is about 3.5MB per second, or a little less than 5 minutes per gig-a-byte. which is slower than saving a project in a DAW via .wav or aiff, but it's a set it and forget it thing transfering between drive bays and I find it's much more stable than saving via DAW programs and .wav/aiff. I use the jog/shuttle editing quite a bit for basic edits without leaving the HD-R. Transfer between drives using FDMS format archives all location points, song titles, track titles, slave/master relationship, frame rates etc. and also this non-audio data is transferred and stored on the audio track pre-roll just before the sync tone if I go to a DAW using the sync tone save method, so no midi or SMPTE is needed to transfer tracks between devices and keeping them sample for sample accurate on the timeline, while maintaining the non-audio data going to and back and I've eliminated any type of midi latency or problems associated with having to use SMPTE, or MMC and MTC for audio only non-AV apps when transferring between digital devices.
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philipp

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Re: Digital Split
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2006, 07:10:10 pm »

Thanks Ronny,

This is very helpful, every sentence of it.

I only would use a UPS for a DAW in a Live Recording because a powerfailure can destroy the filecatalogue on a hd - after that its pretty hard to get the tracks back.

But with this D2424 I don't see the evidence of an UPS as you say its formatted for linear recording. I guess, you can't loose something allready beeing on disk exept the disk itself brakes  (right?)

I'm doing few liverecordings a year, but now its seems quite clear instead of hiring a split I'd better hire such a fostex machine again - I just have to make sure the disk is fresh formatted Smile

Ronny

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Re: Digital Split
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2006, 05:23:32 pm »

philipp wrote on Thu, 12 October 2006 19:10

Thanks Ronny,

This is very helpful, every sentence of it.

I only would use a UPS for a DAW in a Live Recording because a powerfailure can destroy the filecatalogue on a hd - after that its pretty hard to get the tracks back.

But with this D2424 I don't see the evidence of an UPS as you say its formatted for linear recording. I guess, you can't loose something allready beeing on disk exept the disk itself brakes  (right?)

I'm doing few liverecordings a year, but now its seems quite clear instead of hiring a split I'd better hire such a fostex machine again - I just have to make sure the disk is fresh formatted Smile





Once the disk has been formatted for FDMS once, than you can use the quick format, which only takes a couple of seconds. I don't think it's like a complete rewrite format as it's so short, but possibly  just erases the user header data and starts the next recording back at the head of the disk. The quick format will regain all the space available of a first full formatted blank drive though, so once a new drive is formatted than it takes no time at all afterwards. There are 3 formats. Quick, Standard and Mulitple Undo. The Standard format gives you the most space, but only allows one undo and redo. The multiple undo format gives you multiple undos recallable by date, for example if I need to undo back 2 months, I can go to the exact time and day and undo to that point, mirror that data to the second bay and than hit redo to get back to the present.
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Dan Mills

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Re: Digital Split
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2006, 06:59:55 pm »

You won't get the full specified transmission length, but there are indeed one in -> two out passive optical splitters.

The key term is "TOSLINK optical splitter" which will return multiple pages of hits.

Regards, Dan.
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