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Author Topic: Digidesign White Paper  (Read 19597 times)

obyone

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Digidesign White Paper
« on: October 03, 2006, 10:32:16 pm »

Hi guys,

I am surprised that no one has mentioned anything about the new white paper that digidesign have posted on their website about clock and jitter (in the news section).

If you do have time to read this Dan, I would love to get your comments about it!

Kind Regards!!!

Denis
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Denis Normandeau
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Ronny

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Re: Digidesign White Paper
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2006, 09:15:02 am »



I quick read it, well more like scanned it, my first impression was that it was an honest and well written article and I didn't notice anything that was off base nor speculative and even counter speculative. They even say that the 192k internal clock can have more jitter than clocking from an external in some cases. I find the conclusion section to mirror the views of many folks on this forum. The writer of the article obviously knows that psychoacoustics play a key role in misevaluating audio gear. He doesn't come right out and say it, but I get the impression that he knows there is a lot of hype from manufacturers that rely on power of suggestion and not always totally false, but round about or misleading information to sell their wares.

Here's the direct link, to save time searching the site.

http://akmedia.digidesign.com/news/docs/WhitePaper_ClockJitt er_30863.pdf

 
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Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: Digidesign White Paper
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2006, 05:58:00 pm »

I read the paper, and was under the impression that they were saying the 192 will have higher jitter when using an External clock, not that it has a higher jitter than other external clocks...
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Derek Jones
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Ronny

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Re: Digidesign White Paper
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2006, 07:47:50 am »

Etch-A-Sketch wrote on Fri, 13 October 2006 17:58

I read the paper, and was under the impression that they were saying the 192 will have higher jitter when using an External clock, not that it has a higher jitter than other external clocks...



I said "in some cases" and was referring to page 13 quoted from:  

http://akmedia.digidesign.com/news/docs/WhitePaper_ClockJitt er_30863.pdf


"dedicated clocks use non-PLL’ed XOs and can have lower amounts of jitter compared to the 192’s PLL’ed internal clock. But since all sources pass through the 192’s PLL, all clocks assume a similar spectrum above the loop filter corner frequency."
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Socrates

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Re: Digidesign White Paper
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2006, 06:52:47 pm »

Its been a long time since I discussed such matters, but I recall that the cable from the dedicated external clock can introduce jitter of its own....
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Ronny

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Re: Digidesign White Paper
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2006, 05:32:23 am »

Socrates wrote on Sat, 14 October 2006 18:52

Its been a long time since I discussed such matters, but I recall that the cable from the dedicated external clock can introduce jitter of its own....


True, I'm in Dan's camp as far as clocking from outboard sources, it's really only needed when linking multi-devices. I've always thought that clocking from the source of the audio made more sense and in the olden days, it provided a more stable system for most of my apps involving only 2 or 3 devices in the clock chain.
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danlavry

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Re: Digidesign White Paper
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2006, 02:57:24 pm »

Ronny wrote on Sun, 15 October 2006 10:32

Socrates wrote on Sat, 14 October 2006 18:52

Its been a long time since I discussed such matters, but I recall that the cable from the dedicated external clock can introduce jitter of its own....


True, I'm in Dan's camp as far as clocking from outboard sources, it's really only needed when linking multi-devices. I've always thought that clocking from the source of the audio made more sense and in the olden days, it provided a more stable system for most of my apps involving only 2 or 3 devices in the clock chain.



If you look at page 8, upper right (digidesign article) it says:

"Internal clock provides the lowest jitter in a single interface system".  

So the digidesign article supports what I have been saying.
The article states a lot of other facts that I have been saying for a long time, though I was not mentioned in the bibliography of that paper.

It would have been great to have Digidesign support a year ago, during my back and forth with that "other company" that makes clocks. I did not really expect Digidesign support, given all that I said about 192KHz, which they were selling at the time.

It would be worth noting that the new digidesign product, the Venue, is basically a 48KHz rate unit. It certainly does not support 192KHz. How does Digidesign explain it? I guess I will have to wait a year or 2 (similar to the clocking issue) for them to come around with a paper stating that 192KHz is not really needed, again, rehashing all that I said as if it were discovered by them.

Meanwhile, all my efforts regarding proper clocking ended at Saloon. My technical comments, posts and graphs are surrounded by posts about drunk monkeys and political junk.

One PSN moderator put the thread back on my forum, and the next day another moderator put it in Saloon. I consider putting the thread in Saloon very offensive. PSN has been ignoring the emails regarding the matter.


You can see the "Proper Word Clock Implementation" thread at Saloon:
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/23134/1684/?src h=dan+lavry#msg_23134  

Regards
Dan Lavry
http://www.lavryengineering.com
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danlavry

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Re: Digidesign White Paper
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2006, 01:45:40 pm »

danlavry wrote on Tue, 17 October 2006 19:57

Ronny wrote on Sun, 15 October 2006 10:32

Socrates wrote on Sat, 14 October 2006 18:52

Its been a long time since I discussed such matters, but I recall that the cable from the dedicated external clock can introduce jitter of its own....


True, I'm in Dan's camp as far as clocking from outboard sources, it's really only needed when linking multi-devices. I've always thought that clocking from the source of the audio made more sense and in the olden days, it provided a more stable system for most of my apps involving only 2 or 3 devices in the clock chain.



If you look at page 8, upper right (digidesign article) it says:

"Internal clock provides the lowest jitter in a single interface system".  

So the digidesign article supports what I have been saying.
The article states a lot of other facts that I have been saying for a long time, though I was not mentioned in the bibliography of that paper.

It would have been great to have Digidesign support a year ago, during my back and forth with that "other company" that makes clocks. I did not really expect Digidesign support, given all that I said about 192KHz, which they were selling at the time.

It would be worth noting that the new digidesign product, the Venue, is basically a 48KHz rate unit. It certainly does not support 192KHz. How does Digidesign explain it? I guess I will have to wait a year or 2 (similar to the clocking issue) for them to come around with a paper stating that 192KHz is not really needed, again, rehashing all that I said as if it were discovered by them.

Meanwhile, all my efforts regarding proper clocking ended at Saloon. My technical comments, posts and graphs are surrounded by posts about drunk monkeys and political junk.

One PSN moderator put the thread back on my forum, and the next day another moderator put it in Saloon. I consider putting the thread in Saloon very offensive. PSN has been ignoring the emails regarding the matter.


You can see the "Proper Word Clock Implementation" thread at Saloon:
 http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/23134/1684/?src h=dan+lavry#msg_23134  

Regards
Dan Lavry
http://www.lavryengineering.com


Does anyone have any comments regarding the above post?

Regards
Dan Lavry
http://www.lavryengineering.com[/quote]

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bushwick

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Re: Digidesign White Paper
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2006, 02:21:22 pm »

My only question is, how can a moderator's posts be moved by another moderator? If that is the case, there is something really crap goin on here. Who would do that and why? Is this a mistake?

joshua
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Joshua Kessler
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bblackwood

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Re: Digidesign White Paper
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2006, 02:39:54 pm »

bushwick wrote on Thu, 19 October 2006 13:21

My only question is, how can a moderator's posts be moved by another moderator? If that is the case, there is something really crap goin on here. Who would do that and why? Is this a mistake?

No, only Admin can move threads around like that. Fletcher explained it to Dan fully, if he has questions, he should contact Fletcher privately.
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Brad Blackwood
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Re: Digidesign White Paper
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2006, 02:45:34 pm »

danlavry wrote on Thu, 19 October 2006 11:45

Does anyone have any comments regarding the above post?


I do find it encouraging to see manufacturers put forth more honest scientific disclosures - especially if it means that end users end up with turley better products.

I was involved is some of the threads that you mention, Dan.  It's a bit sad they're in the 'Saloon' as there was a wealth of great technical information that many of us learned a great deal from.  Wherever that info is now, it's just great that it's still available for others to learn from.  Personally, I was most saddened when I tried to re-read the thread to re-learn and at one point found the thread missing from PSW.

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Nathan Rousu

danlavry

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Re: Digidesign White Paper
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2006, 06:35:16 pm »

bblackwood wrote on Thu, 19 October 2006 19:39

bushwick wrote on Thu, 19 October 2006 13:21

My only question is, how can a moderator's posts be moved by another moderator? If that is the case, there is something really crap goin on here. Who would do that and why? Is this a mistake?

No, only Admin can move threads around like that. Fletcher explained it to Dan fully, if he has questions, he should contact Fletcher privately.


Hi Brad,

Here are the facts:

The removal of the thread WAS coupled with a message from a PSN stating "moved by moderator". This was on a forum where I am a moderator, and I did not post it. I accept that it was an un intentional error on the part of PSN. It was corrected, so I have no issue with that.  

When you reposted this thread, it was removed within a day and put in Saloon. No one told me about it. There was no discussion at all, and Fletcher did NOT say anything to me about it. No discussion, he just did it.

Priscilla and I sent at least 4 emails to Fletcher, stating how displeased I was to the thread posted in Saloon, and what we wish will be done.  

We recieved NO REPLY!

Regards
Dan Lavry
http://www.lavryengineering.com

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Fletcher

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Re: Digidesign White Paper
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2006, 08:35:56 pm »

Because no reply was necessary.  

Do you really want to get into this on your forum or would you like to get back to the business of discussing audio [the purpose of these forums].

As I mentioned in my PM [Private Message] to you earlier today, if you have a problem with this pick up the phone and give me a call.  I do not respond to spousal emails concerning forum matters.

I would also suggest you delete this post, and all posts that are not audio related... but its your forum, do as you like [within reason].

Peace.
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CN Fletcher

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Re: Digidesign White Paper
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2006, 10:19:48 pm »

danlavry wrote on Thu, 19 October 2006 12:45



Does anyone have any comments regarding the above post?

Regards
Dan Lavry
http://www.lavryengineering.com


Censorship can never be a good thing.



In the long run truth will prevail.
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Ronny

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Re: Digidesign White Paper
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2006, 01:40:11 am »


"Censorship can never be a good thing."

Exactly.

Not only does PSW censor members that don't post agreeable posts to the moderators, but they delete some of the moderators posts when they aren't agreeable with the owners. We aren't dumb asses, we know that you make money on the advertising and over cater to some manufacturers who pay the bills. It's obvious what's been happening for quite a while now.

It's a big problem PSW, you should look into it as the truth in audio is more important than any product that you may lose revenue on, just because others in the audio industry may pan it. I feel that you should look at it as a good reason to re-examine your own views, but obviously my single opinion doesn't mean jack.

The Lavry forum is the last one on PSW that I monitor for this reason, so lose another click through customer, I won't go to the Saloon to read what should be kept on this forum. I'll look at it once again after you delete this post, as PSW is not a fair and unbiased newsgroup base and I'll reserve myself to reading Dan's expert take on what's really happening in audio, on his website where the issue of censorship would never exist, even at the detriment of market PR on his own products.

They can never rob you of your honesty and struggle for truth in audio Dan Lavry, they can only attempt to postpone it.

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