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Author Topic: Your chain  (Read 68892 times)

Bob Olhsson

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Re: Your chain
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2006, 11:33:00 AM »

I came up pretty old school being taught to always patch around anything in the signal path that you weren't using.

I've done a lot of listening to both analog gear and digital processes in "bypass," engaged but set to "flat" and in different orders because of running into some big surprises both positive and negative at all price levels. The important thing is matching signal levels carefully because a couple tenth's of a dB more  volume can make something sound better that actually sounds degraded once the levels are matched up.

I choose what to put in the chain based on the sonic benefit being obviously greater than the inevitable sonic loss that the same piece introduces. I've never found anything that always makes things sound better although sometimes a particular piece of gear will sound better when it's buffered by another set to flat or bypass. I listen very carefully for what's getting screwed up in addition to whatever I'm trying to accomplish. For example using a different equalizer without de-essing can sound better overall than the first one I tried that sounded great but then really needed to have the esses softened.

masterhse

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Re: Your chain
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2006, 11:33:33 AM »

bblackwood wrote on Sun, 25 June 2006 09:36

To continue the thought process...

How does your chain sound? How does that sound influence your decision regarding the order of the processors? Is that something you consider, or is it a matter of what needs to happen where to achieve your desired goals?

Does more = better or does more = more?

It's fascinating to me so far that there seems to be very little middle ground - folks seem to have either tons of gear or somewhat simplistic chains...

Discuss.


Less = more, but more = more options.

It's better to have more options and remove any fat in the chain. To do this you need to be able to have a malleable processing chain, and one that can change quickly.

I usually start from a blank slate and build the chain as I go. The first thing that I do is try to listen to a rough version of final level of the mix, usually by starting with a limiter if needed. I then listen for issues in the mixes that need correcting, remove the limiter, and start building the chain.

I like to listen to all of the mixes on the album before starting to build the chain in order to see common issues between them. If there are, this processing goes on the aux track common to all of the songs. Individual issues are addressed by either automating along a timeline, or on individual audio tracks containing each song. If there are tweaks that need to be made to the aux track that has processing for all of the songs, I will either automate that, or tweak before bouncedown if it's in the analog world. The automation is great for revisiting a master if changes are required.

In summary, the chain is customized for what the project needs.
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Tom Volpicelli
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Andy Krehm

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Re: Your chain
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2006, 11:54:50 AM »

Bob Boyd wrote on Sun, 25 June 2006 11:13

Andy Krehm wrote on Sun, 25 June 2006 00:40


However, we own Logic and a second sound card being used for SpectraFoo (in the same Mac). My tech guy is working out a system where we will be able to output PTs to the Lavry Digital Optimizer and into the second sound card and record into Logic Audio (which I own). I'll then be able monitor the 16b/44.1 dithered masters as I'm mastering a high rez session. He says it works fine but wants to make sure there is little or no lag time when playing back Logic controlled by Pro Tools.

If that doesn't work smoothly enough, I'll probably go for a second computer


Andy,

you may have better luck that I did but before buying my second Mac, I tried running both PT and Peak and it proved to be too much for the overall system (and I'm not using any CPU-based plugs).  Far too unstable, even on a Dual 2.5 G5.

I would recommend going with the second system when you can.  Although you'll need to consider monitor placement, I have loved having more screen real estate - doing my work on the main system and having the analyzers/meters on the second screen making it easy to glance over at them.



Well, we are going to try the Logic idea first as it already up and running. My tech guy has it synced by machine control with Pro Tools and says that I'll be able to flip around via markers as if I had the master recorded back to Pro Tools (the way I work now). I will no longer have the visuals of the master's waveform but I create the markers before mastering so it shouldn't matter. I can always bring Logic to the foreground if I want to check something on the master. After the album is mastered, I'll simple drag and drop the files from the Logic Audio folder into a WaveBurner Template and continue on as usual.

If it doesn't work smoothly enough, I will try a second computer.

With your dual computer setup, is there a reason why you didn't go for a monitor/keyboard switcher box as opposed to another monitor? My speakers, desk and single monitor (20 x 13 rectangle) are already very carefully designed and placed for mimimum reflections and there is simply nowhere to place another monitor without compromising the setup. On this fairly large monitor screen, I have room for PTs, Spectra-Foo and my TC 6000 software (yes, one can save about $2,000. by not keeping the fancy controller that makes no sound and the software works almost as well. Mind you, if I want to impress a client by saying I have a TC 6000, I have to point to the unit in the machine closet as I no longer have the cool looking fader box to show off!).

Also, when you chose a second computer, what was your reasoning in choosing another Mac? My thought was, since PC has different things to offer and are generally less expensive, why not go with a PC, if one must have a second computer in order to do real time sample rate conversion?

Andy,

Silverbirch Productions.

Phil Demetro

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Re: Your chain
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2006, 12:44:20 PM »

bblackwood wrote on Sun, 25 June 2006 09:36

To continue the thought process...

How does your chain sound? How does that sound influence your decision regarding the order of the processors? Is that something you consider, or is it a matter of what needs to happen where to achieve your desired goals?
.


The chain I've currently posted  here is sounding good (for now).  But It's not random either. Each piece is where it's at  in the chain for a reason. I do spend some time thinking about it,  (re) define my goals and listen to it and then put it up for a test run. I've only had one way of "working" since I entered the business in 1997 as an intern to George Graves and when I was ready for clients - carried on with a similar approach myself when my own room got going in early 2000.

It's very hard to desribe the sound I am going for in my head and then reproduce it in a signal path. It's definitely more complex than just saying I want it to sound better. I am trying to achieve a signature even when doing very little. The guys at the studio here used to have a laugh and  test how current my ears were by putting various popular music CD's up on the speakers and having me figure out who did the mastering. I could tell most times.... So it' been my goal to have my projects sound good yet still have that something that people can recognize.  I am striving to be a really great mastering engineer and while good gear is part of the equation I do feel more than ever that if the gear is set up right it should become transparent and therefore be more about what I am doing instead. It took a while to figure that one out.  But all experiments were time well spent. These days I spend less time thinking about gear but alot more time on how I'm going to put it together.

This is why i don't feel like I'm giving away any real secrets here... this signal path lets "me be me" more and gets me closer to that sound in my head.

It's getting better the more time I invest in it, it seems.  And the less gear I use the better it seems to sound. Even tho' tempting to use everything I got. It's all paid for so I guess I don't feel the need to use everything all the time!

All my gear choices are based "tone"  - a word I don't hear very much anymore. Most modern gear that is marketted  or aimed for mastering I typically don't like at all. Some of it leaves me really unimpressed.
Specs be damned. I want something with some tone, muscle, depth, distortion, whatever. "I'm over"  the  world of mastering that operates in .1 dB increments.  I'm far more interested in running stuff thru a transformer. This is my world. Who says this method can't sound really good or great?

While I do find outboard gear to be more suited to my style I do use plug ins a lot these days. I surprise myself by saying that, too. While on their own some of then are truly horrible - incorporated into the chain I have just setup, I find the plugins really great. To my ears a more pleasing addition to the mix than some of those expensive outboard digital processors. I sold my weiss eq. Really Surprising.

A neat thread here, thanks.

Phil
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Bob Boyd

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Re: Your chain
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2006, 01:01:21 PM »

Andy Krehm wrote on Sun, 25 June 2006 10:54

With your dual computer setup, is there a reason why you didn't go for a monitor/keyboard switcher box as opposed to another monitor? My speakers, desk and single monitor (20 x 13 rectangle) are already very carefully designed and placed for mimimum reflections and there is simply nowhere to place another monitor without compromising the setup.

I like having the additional screen space.  Different screens for different but simultaneous tasks.  I like assembling the album as I master so it's not uncommon for me to run both systems and switch the D/A back and forth a couple of times.  I was very careful to make sure the second screen didn't compromise my monitoring.  There is a large clearance between the screens.  I went with a larger DLP monitor in front to keep it out of the listening path.  The one on the left is far enough out of the way - just a little forward of being almost directly to my left.
Quote:

On this fairly large monitor screen, I have room for PTs, Spectra-Foo and my TC 6000 software (yes, one can save about $2,000. by not keeping the fancy controller that makes no sound and the software works almost as well. Mind you, if I want to impress a client by saying I have a TC 6000, I have to point to the unit in the machine closet as I no longer have the cool looking fader box to show off!).

I know where you're coming from.  It was a difficult decision to buy the System 6000 ICON.  I hadn't intended on buying the controller but they were smart to send it with the demo system.  Once I realized how much faster I could fly around with the dedicated controller I decided to keep it.

Quote:

Also, when you chose a second computer, what was your reasoning in choosing another Mac? My thought was, since PC has different things to offer and are generally less expensive, why not go with a PC, if one must have a second computer in order to do real time sample rate conversion?


I looked but it was actually cheaper to go with another Mac.  I already owned Peak, utility stuff like Barbabatch for mp3/mp4 encoding, and a host of other software apps.  A comparably equipped PC with similar performance was roughly the same money anyway.  I'm still doing acquisition in Peak but I am assembling in Sonic PMCD now.
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Bob Boyd
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mikepecchio

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Re: Your chain
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2006, 02:17:08 PM »

I consider my setup pretty stripped down. and I usually don't have everything going at once.  everything comes out to an XLR patchbay.

temporarily using a psx-100 for conversion since the lavry blue left with my old partner.

GML 8200, SSL 384G comp, neve 33609 (I generally only use the limiters), cello audio palette EQ/line amp.  recently added a pair of tube tech program EQs, not sure if they will stay.

DAW is nuendo. digital EQ with plugins. Refined audiometrics PLP EQ and JMS hi-res. I also sometimes use the waves D-esser and voxengo elephant.

monitoring with a bencmark dac-1

chime!
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bblackwood

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Re: Your chain
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2006, 04:29:48 PM »

Interesting read thus far. It's especially interesting seeing the different philosophies and how they manifest themselves in people's gear choices and chain complexity...

I'm a simple (minded) guy - over the years I have chosen gear that almost always improves the sonic characteristics of what's run through it. I've done flat transfers before that really made the mixers happy - they were asking what all I did to it. I don't consider my chain to be colored, but it does seem to impart a nice bit of depth and tone. I'm going to add one more EQ and then I cannot imagine adding anything else.

cerebrus wrote:

but why would anyone add complexity if it didn't sound better?

For some (not all), I would be willing to bet it's the whole 'gear slut' mentality, where the gear becomes the goal, not the tool. I've seen enough of this over the years to say with confidence it happens.

Fact is, in my room, I always seem to find ways of achieving the sound in my head with my simple chain. Diff strokes and all that.

Keep 'em coming, guys!
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Brad Blackwood
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Andy Krehm

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Re: Your chain
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2006, 05:42:19 PM »

bblackwood wrote on Sun, 25 June 2006 16:29

Interesting read thus far. It's especially interesting seeing the different philosophies and how they manifest themselves in people's gear choices and chain complexity...

I'm a simple (minded) guy - over the years I have chosen gear that almost always improves the sonic characteristics of what's run through it. I've done flat transfers before that really made the mixers happy - they were asking what all I did to it. I don't consider my chain to be colored, but it does seem to impart a nice bit of depth and tone. I'm going to add one more EQ and then I cannot imagine adding anything else.

cerebrus wrote:

but why would anyone add complexity if it didn't sound better?

For some (not all), I would be willing to bet it's the whole 'gear slut' mentality, where the gear becomes the goal, not the tool. I've seen enough of this over the years to say with confidence it happens.

Fact is, in my room, I always seem to find ways of achieving the sound in my head with my simple chain. Diff strokes and all that.

Keep 'em coming, guys!

You know, I've never thought of my chain as being simple but it actual is.

I start by playing the mix through four tube units, while carefully working on the gain staging. I also carefully A/B the master against the mix at the same volume, especially the first master of the album . That way I and anyone attending can be sure that were are improving the the sound and not losing anything good, especially the kick and snare!

After bypassing any tube gear that isn't working out (rare), I'll check out how it sounds through the ATR 1/2", make a decision on that and then start adding in any number of digital outboard gear and/or some analog solid state eq.

The tube setup is the basis of my sound and everything else is added for a purpose.  Of course I may vary the starting procedure depending on the music but that really is my basic routine.

To re-paraphrase my colleague Phil at the Lacquer Channel, anyone that doesn't like tubes probably shouldn't be mastering at Silverbirch!

Everything piece of gear that I have here was selected for a purpose --- no gear-slutting... honest!!

I can easily assemble a very expensive and effective outboard digital chain with my Weiss units, TC 6000 and Digital Domain K-Unit, not to mention some pretty good plug-ins. This I will use only on request or because something in a mix will over-excite my tube gear and cause distortion, but I don't care for the sound of pure digital, no matter how good the processors are.

Different stokes!!!

Andy,

Silverbirch Productions.


Ed Littman

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Re: Your chain
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2006, 06:15:33 PM »

cerberus wrote on Sun, 25 June 2006 09:52

more =

but why would anyone add complexity if it didn't sound better?

jeff dinces


Gearaholic + loss of perception= overcooked.

I love running my signal into the dangerous S&M box & assigning the left channels of my ibis, chandler ltd-2, stc-8(usually eq first as to use the comps for makeup gain) to the center(sum) & the right to the sides(minus). chaining things this way, I can easily process in m/s if needed, spread the signal wider, balance side vs. center, or process in a normal mode. just thinking side/ mid instead of left right when setting up gear.
after this analog chain i hit the hedd(not to hard)& makeup gain on capture in the box while adding in plugs like the algorithmix red, orange, & restoration, or some waves Etc. if needed.
This is the best & cleanest chain I have ever had. I am waiting for the crookwood analog router as to not have to deal with the xlr patchbay. I had crispin program it so everything is in duel mono or a switch to lock it into stereo. This would allow me to easily continue routing as stated above.
Ed
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cerberus

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Re: Your chain
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2006, 07:23:41 PM »

two types of gearaholic/slut  i do respect:

1. the curious engineer who needs to try everything themselves, and can afford to do so. they do not need to justify their purchase of anything by claiming to like it; nor do they feel obligated to use something they have bought in order to recoup their investment; or to not seem foolish and wasteful, even to themselves, etc...

2. a mastering jedi who is past the point of diminshing returns on improving their skills and their gear is obviously holding them back from doing best possible work.

what bothers me most is an "engineer" who think their box makes them elegant... when inside it's doing m/s, parallel processing, multiband, companding... or whatever they think they are not doing and don't have a clue about what the box is doing to the signal "like magic". often they will mention the piece in their personal signature on internet forums; not sure if that is intended to help others or put them down for not being as educated or affluent as them; or to gain acceptance into a particular clique.

i know my clients can be curious, but they really don't seem too anxious about which compressor i might use or not use. i've lost mixing business for not being compatible with pthd, and surround (because i have contacts from my analog days who moved in that direction, we can't work together now unless i spend $40K+...that puts a different perpective on my gear needs) but no issues like that so far with stereo mastering.

jeff dinces

Brad Sarno

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Re: Your chain
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2006, 08:32:53 PM »

I've had this chain for about 3+ years now, and I'm pretty happy with it. Most all of what I do here in St. Louis is rock and rap, but there's plenty of everything coming thru here.

Mac running MOTU's DP

Spectrafoo metering

MOTU 2408 used strictly at a SPDIF router. Handy because it has both a SPDIF output, and also doubles the analog outs on a second SPDIF for sending to a good monitor DAC.

Lots of Waves stuff, linear phase, mastering, renn. etc.

The path leaves the 2408 via SPDIF into a GW Labs upsampler/de-jitter box. There I'll upsample to 96k and then on to the Benchmark DAC. So it's playing out at 96k, dejittered, and also since it's at 96k, the anti-alias filtering has a far more gentle slope so it and sounds pretty nice. That 44.1kHz anti-aliasing can really put that crispy smear on sound, so I like to feed the analog path with a 96k DAC output.

From the Benchmark it goes to a Manley Massive Passive. Pretty colored EQ, but for most projects it's pretty friendly and musical. I've grown very used to the MP and really like it. The high end on that thing can make some really nice, sweet air on top that I couldn't get away with using many or maybe any other EQ's. I also like the whole range on the MP. The hi-pass filters are nice too for those junk-in-the-trunk mixes.

From the MP, it hits a Manley Vari-Mu. The way that the Vari-Mu kind of fuses or melds the kick and bass into a more cohesive sound is nice. I'd like a less mushy comp someday, maybe an STC-8, but I barely squash with it in general, and I like to keep the attack real slow to preseve punch. Release time usually relates to tempo. Generally the Vari-Mu treats me pretty well.

From there I'm hitting a stock Apogee Rosetta. I like its sound for the rock and rap stuff. Again, I'd like a more open and natural A/D, but I'm used to this one for the moment.

The whole system is clocked off the Apogee.

Once it's back in the box, I monitor with the L2 on and use Spectra Foo to help nail the average loudness (Thanks Mr. Katz). The new file is still 24 bits and has yet to actually be peak limited. What's nice about leaving the real L2 till later is that it's very easy to tweak loudness since the file is still unpeaked.

I'll import the files into Waveburner Pro and insert the operative L2 at that stage. I use the Pow-R dithering instead of the L2's shaping and dithering. From there I can burn a Redbook disk. I also am set up to create DDP's in Sonic Studio's DDP software. I'm not real slick in DDP yet, and honestly it doesn't even come close to Waveburner when it comes to true efficiency and ease in laying out the CD. But I'm gonna spend more time with DDP and form a better opinion.

I may upgrade DDP to Soundblade if they ever put out the demo. It seems like they're on the right path, but I'm not convinced yet that they truly understand workflow yet.

I monitor using a custom grayhill switched passive monitor controller. The main amp is a Musical Concepts mod to a Hafler DH200 mosfet amp. The main monitors are Dunlavy SC-4's and a 1000 watt, sealed cab, Velodyne sub. I also monitor thru a Sony jambox with a line in. Those little cheesy, ported 4" speakers will always help me dial in the 120Hz to 250Hz range. I've also got Rogers LS3/5A's, NS-10's, Auratones, and a few others, but most of my monitoring is done on the Dunlavys and the Sonys.

Burning CD's with a Plextor premium using Taiyo Yuden disks.

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Brad Sarno
Blue Jade Audio Mastering
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Brad Sarno

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Re: Your chain
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2006, 08:34:36 PM »

Oh yea. I wish I also had a Sontec EQ and a Cranesong STC-8 comp and another A/D converter, undecided which one.





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Brad Sarno
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jfrigo

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Re: Your chain
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2006, 02:02:08 AM »

In addition to the complexity of chains being discussed, the complexity of their use (M/S processing, multiband and parallell compression) is also an interesting, related subject. I wonder, are the people who love to have complex chains the same people who like complex processes?

I tend to stick with pretty straightforward processes unless I have a specific reason to deviate. I don't default to M/S and multiband etc, and don't find myself needing them a majority of the time.

Though I have a fair amount of gear available, I pretty much stick to my NSEQ-2, Vari-Mu, Weiss EQ, t.c. 6000 (MD4 limiter usually), and L2. Sometimes the only thing in use is the NSEQ-2 to a custom ADC and one of the limiters (t.c. or L2).

Source is usually Pro Tools to a Lavry DAC, and analog is either Studer A820, or Ampex ATR. The Studer lives in the room, though the Ampex gets wheeled in often... if often is the right word with the dwindling analog coming in lately. A few pieces of gear in the room (or out of the room but near-by) are used for occasional specific things, similar to my POV about bringing in M/S EQ etc. When I have a specific desire for a certain trick, some of the other gear gets added to the chain. Otherwise, it's just there to cover eventualities.

My basic POV is use as little as necessary to get the job done. However, I'm not afraid to string up a bunch of stuff now and then, or change it up if that's what it takes.

The one thing that's been on my list for a while, but I haven't found the one to suit me yet, is a more neutral analog compressor, or if not neutral, at least a different color from the Manley. I've been through a couple, but none have stuck.
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Your chain
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2006, 02:37:07 AM »

jfrigo wrote on Mon, 26 June 2006 01:02

...Though I have a fair amount of gear available, I pretty much stick to my NSEQ-2, Vari-Mu, Weiss EQ, t.c. 6000 (MD4 limiter usually), and L2. Sometimes the only thing in use is the NSEQ-2 to a custom ADC and one of the limiters (t.c. or L2).

Source is usually Pro Tools to a Lavry DAC, and analog is either Studer A820, or Ampex ATR.
(snip)
The one thing that's been on my list for a while, but I haven't found the one to suit me yet, is a more neutral analog compressor, or if not neutral, at least a different color from the Manley. I've been through a couple, but none have stuck.


Sounds like we're on the same (or similar) page Jay.

Cheers JT
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cerberus

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Re: Your chain
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2006, 08:04:03 AM »

jfrigo wrote on Mon, 26 June 2006 02:02

In addition to the complexity of chains being discussed, the complexity of their use (M/S processing, multiband and parallell compression) is also an interesting, related subject. I wonder, are the people who love to have complex chains the same people who like complex processes?


yes, exactly, i could just say i use a computer. that would simplify things for people who want to hear it that way. you don't even begin to get into what makes the vari-mu special...we should call in hutch to tell us why he bothered to make it...and then maybe it won't seem so "simple" to any of us. a studer isn't too simple either...

of course i think you understand more that you are letting on here. if i received the general quality of mixes you did...i probably wouldn't use differental m/s on them either. but if you were to do a freebie for one of my  clients, i bet you'd be finding you'd need to visit your patch bay more often than usual. i see no sense in pointing out the differences in our clients, as long as you could still handle what i do on a regular basis if you needed to.

no disrespect intended, but we don't compete for the same jobs. if you remain a better engineer than me, then that will always be the case. but if it comes down to what boxes i can afford...then i have a chance to catch bigger fish if i find some money?  i don't believe it.  wouldn't get me a single client.  if it did;  then they would fly away as soon as the next "must have" box comes out...unless i bought that too,...is that the kind of "client loyalty" i seek? no way.

what i am counting on is people hearing my work and that's how work comes. nobody called me looking for a guy with a vari-mu.. they don't care if i post on the same forum as eveanna occasionally does; (even though i think it's cool!).

jeff dinces
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