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Author Topic: another horrible tom-tom club...  (Read 5915 times)

.nathan.kosakowski.

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another horrible tom-tom club...
« on: December 06, 2005, 02:57:55 PM »

right, i know about jj's tom mic shootout thingy.  but...

i've ran though a studio the other day that had pretty much the entire kit mic'd close with km84's.  this was rock music i think. thing was they seemed practically aimed straight down at the skin.  prependicular, fairly on the outside, about an inch up.

hi, mid, lo toms, snare, overheads... all km84.  anyway, my available SDCs are a pair of microtech gefell M200's, a pair of the utilitarianly unpricey studio project c4's, neumann kms105, some octava i've had since i was a freshman in highschool.

i tried this technique with the c4's, omni and cardiod (omni was better, not proximity'd to the moon).  just for most part it sucked.  sure, isolated, but lots of boing, not so much kung-pao.

i'm utlimately in search of a clear tom sound, but it always seems to stick out from the mix horribly.  but thats prolly my mixing problem.  but get it right from the source as best you can, right?

i'm all about huge drums, lots of room, etc.  but everytime i get the toms loudenough to suit a tom heavy drum groove, they don't play along.  usually using ev n/d468's, position them anyware, lots of attack, or even sm57s on the racks (they are pretty small toms, 12 & 13 i think)

hmm, i suppose i could live with bigger toms, but thats the studio set and thats what i got.
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Nathan Kosakowski
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J.J. Blair

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Re: another horrible tom-tom club...
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2005, 03:20:06 PM »

Nathan, 12 and 13 are not small for racks.  Is the problem that the drums are not sounding on play back what they sound like in person?  BTW, I don't know the M200s, but the M300s absolutely kill on toms.  Whenever I'm not using a D19, it's probably because I'm using a M300.

And another thing is that perpendicular to the head will give you more 'boing', because you are going to capture some standing waves between the two heads, usually.  Try 45˚ or even as much as 60˚.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

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Tidewater

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Re: another horrible tom-tom club...
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2005, 03:38:11 PM »

I like to aim them straight down, you can pick the note. I pick one that works with me, and against the extraneous overtones of the other drums.

Working with an assistant is hard enough, without one is crazy.

That is where, and when my drum sounds have suffered most, blowing my ears out, then trying to discern changes, with moments between the two, and never really finding the best placements, because I can't be two places at once. -and deaf-

It's more than you asked, but I like to type.


M
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Malcolm Boyce

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Re: another horrible tom-tom club...
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2005, 03:44:57 PM »

OK, I'll bite.

First off, do the toms you're dealing with sound good to you to begin with?  If so, great!  Move on to step 2.  If not, that's where you have to start before picking on your mic selection.

Step 2... Try out as many different mics as you can get your hands on, including mics that you know that have recorded some of your fav. sounds.

Step 3...  Use the ones you like best, and remember, just like everything else, position is everything.

My experience with tom mics, is that I was a die hard fan of dynamics for a "huge" rock tom sound.  Then I discovered SM98s.  Totally changed my opinion of the dynamic/condenser comparison.  I have used a great variety of mics on toms with success.  My favourite choice these days are Beta98s, but with great regularity I also will use:  SM57, Beta56, Senn.604, EV408, Beyer Opus87/88

If you were a little more specific about what you don't like about the sounds you're getting, other than that they don't work in the mix, you might get more constructive help.

Good luck,
Malcolm
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Malcolm Boyce

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Re: another horrible tom-tom club...
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2005, 04:06:18 PM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 16:20

And another thing is that perpendicular to the head will give you more 'boing', because you are going to capture some standing waves between the two heads, usually.  Try 45˚ or even as much as 60˚.


Another thing about the angle toward the center of the head is that the higher frequencies that are most directional in the pattern, are what are generated by the stick impact, which hopefully is more near the center of the head.  I will even look to see where the batter head is worn, assuming they aren't new, and "aim" the mic there.
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.nathan.kosakowski.

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Re: another horrible tom-tom club...
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2005, 06:14:17 PM »

right, reply time...

yes, the drums sound just peachy, wouldn't be asking otherwise...  as far as angle, it's a great tool, i was just more curious if this is some method i've overlooked.  (it was one of those top ten studios i observed it in) so i'll consider this method debunked for myself. (the 90*  angle thing, 'boing' is the right word).  they sounded plastic and flat, i'm going back to dynamic and LDC's.  till i try the geffels that is...

a different question of sorts:

when the toms are just occasional hits and accents i'm ok.  when doing a rock song that requires a big rolling kinda loose sound, with a good deal of stereo seperation, i run into problems.

the toms sound ok when panned reletively shallow, but when trying for the big sweeping rolls, by the time i get them panned out far enough to achive this, they sound way outside the 'drum' field.  they don't integrate well with the kit as a whole.  this seems to happen even when my overheads were spaced on the set and the channels panned hard.  though i usually pan a little less than that...  i've also tried ORTF over the set.  usually using blue dragonfly's with the capsule and electronics from their 'kiwi' mic.

so... and ideas for widening the drum field?  
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Nathan Kosakowski
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Tidewater

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Re: another horrible tom-tom club...
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2005, 06:28:06 PM »

Mics facing directly into the heads don't just add boing. If you adjust how close, and where at, you get a strong note, just like micing cymbals. Stong tones where you want, naturally take the place of tones you don't want.

I like 57s on toms.

Sometimes I don't use individual tracks at mix.


M
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OOF!

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Re: another horrible tom-tom club...
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2005, 07:20:33 PM »

JJ, you've found the m300s don't overload on toms?  interesting choice- i'll have to try it out.
david
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Fibes

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Re: another horrible tom-tom club...
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2005, 08:05:38 PM »

Hell, i get most of my toms from the OHs.

Drums sound like drums when you get further than 2 inches from them. The last two sessions I've been using AKG 418 and 419s. They are so small i can fit them anywhere. The best part is they have decent off axis tone and are very directional.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: another horrible tom-tom club...
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2005, 10:23:02 PM »

OOF! wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 16:20

JJ, you've found the m300s don't overload on toms?  interesting choice- i'll have to try it out.


They shouldn't.  One of them started to, recently, and I sent it in to get fixed.  Needless to say, you'll want a pad before the mic pre.  
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Slider2

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Re: another horrible tom-tom club...
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2005, 11:44:03 PM »

I agree Fibes.
Toms sound SO good through the overs.
Close mics never quite do the same thing.
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brandondrury

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Re: another horrible tom-tom club...
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2005, 11:52:32 PM »

It's a given, but if the drummer doesn't hit his toms properly they will never sound great in the song.  I've noticed that a lot of drummers like to beat the hell out of the toms when you getting your sounds, but in the middle of the song they barely graze the head.  

Obviously, I'm not exactly recording mega pro guys in this situation.

Either way, watch your drummers and make sure they are giving you what they want.

Brandon

J.J. Blair

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Re: another horrible tom-tom club...
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2005, 03:44:59 AM »

Slider2 wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 20:44


Toms sound SO good through the overs.
Close mics never quite do the same thing.


Mine do!
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

covert

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Re: another horrible tom-tom club...
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2005, 10:42:53 AM »

Malcolm Boyce wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 16:06


Another thing about the angle toward the center of the head is that the higher frequencies that are most directional in the pattern, are what are generated by the stick impact, which hopefully is more near the center of the head.  I will even look to see where the batter head is worn, assuming they aren't new, and "aim" the mic there.


In my experience, different harmonic content comes from different parts of the drum.  Most drums have a rather nasty high pitched zone near the rim.  As you move away from teh rim, you get deeper stuff.  It's the same as with strings, there are different points along the length that sound higher or deeper.
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lord fear

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Re: another horrible tom-tom club...
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2005, 07:24:27 PM »

have you ever tried micing the bottom of the drum and fliping the phase? I've had great success doing this with either an RE-20 or an SM7
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Malcolm Boyce

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Re: another horrible tom-tom club...
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2005, 09:03:53 PM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Wed, 07 December 2005 04:44

Slider2 wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 20:44


Toms sound SO good through the overs.
Close mics never quite do the same thing.


Mine do!

Ditto!
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John Ivan

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Re: another horrible tom-tom club...
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2005, 09:09:54 PM »

I like my cheap AT clip on's lately on tom's. I point them almost straight down. They have a wind screen on them so, this tends to help the "reflection" problem some have reported. I have had this problem before too, where the "slap" of the stick sounds papery and I chalked this up to the strike reflecting off the mic and back onto the head.. Coated heads and a wind screen helped this a lot.

When pointing straight down, I like to move into the head as far as the drummer,{sometimes that's me} will allow. However, moving to far in and being to close can make the "boink" sound.

I try to get the overheads happening so the toms sound real good in the pair. I like to be able to fade the toms in and have the tom level come up with out them sounding like they are coming from somewhere else. To get this to happen, I am happy to print with some EQ on the toms. I end up high passing and shaping the high mid end a bit. Why not print the sound I want? Getting real close to a tom with most mic's will mean some bottom need's to be carved out for them to sound like a louder version of what the overs are getting... Kinda..... I guess........ Or somethin'  ;-}

I sure love drums..

Oh, I'm a Remo guy still. For rock/hard hitting funk and so on, I like coated Emperor's on the top and clear Ambassador's on the Bottom. Tuning means nearly everything. Period. If that part is not good, your done before you start. Tuning tuning tuning......

Ivan..........
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