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Author Topic: The LA Transfer  (Read 11811 times)

Mixerman

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The LA Transfer
« on: November 20, 2005, 07:03:19 pm »

To all,

I have demonstrated the loss of low-end in this kind of transfer about a dozen times to people that have no interest in the outcome of the results (aside from wanting their record to sound good).

Slipperman has experienced the loss of low-end dozens of times, and has been called on it with some marked disappointment from bands.

Steve Albini has stated the following: "I heard the low-end problem plain as day. To me, being as honest as I can about my thinking and perceptions, it was unmistakeable."

Bob Ohlsson has experienced the obvious loss of low-end.

Fletcher has not weighed in yet.

Here's what I'm going to propose in order to lay this to rest once and for all.

I want Rail Jon Rogut, Rick Krizman, John Van Nest (The Resonater), Terry Manning (compaspoint), Randy Nicklaus, and Bryan Jackson (Digiengineer), with me, in a room, in LA, in the next three weeks (before December 16), with a 2" machine, a Pro Tools HD rig, and a Radar.

This will not be an event. There will be one assistant in the room. There will be no drinks. Just 7 professionals, listening objectively, and with the goal of putting this to rest once and for all.

I will supply the program, (which will consist of drums only) and I will make arrangements for the room and the equipment.

Rail can make sure that the transfers are done to spec. He can adjust anything he likes, on any machine, just so long as everyone is satisfied that the transfer and the playback is being executed flawlessly. I'm quite certain we can all agree to that.

We will do two transfers and two transfers only. One into Pro Tools HD. One into Radar. I will print three static mixes from each machine, to a digital 2-track of the groups choice, using db gold converters at 44.1/16. We will then compare Analog to Digital A, and Analog to Digital B. People can listen blind, not blind, I don't care. It's not going to change the results.

When I am done conducting this demonstration, there will be 6 more full-time professionals prepared to state they could hear an obvious low-end loss in transfer to Pro Tools HD. The internet pundits can then make what they want out of that. But perhaps, Digidesign would be so kind as to finally fix the problem.

I need a PM from each of the participants listed above. In the PM, please supply me with an email address where I can send correspondence to the group as a whole, and so that we can come upon a date that is satisfactory for everyone involved.

Thanks,

Mixerman
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Mixerman

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Re: The LA Transfer
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2005, 07:05:52 pm »

So far, I have heard from Randy Nicklaus, John Van Nest, and Terry Manning, the three of whom would like to attend. Terry is the wild card as he's so far away, but I'm sure we can find some other LA pros to join us if Terry can't come. Ross Hogarth perhaps?

I'm still waiting for Rick Krizman, Rail Jon Ragut, and Bryan Jackson. Rick is avoding responding to this challenge entirely. I have no reason to believe that Rail and Bryan don't even know I've posted this.

Enjoy,

Mixerman
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RKrizman

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Re: The LA Transfer
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2005, 07:36:06 pm »

Mixerman wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 19:05

I'm still waiting for Rick Krizman, Rail Jon Ragut, and Bryan Jackson. Rick is avoding responding to this challenge entirely.


What, are you baiting me?  I still haven't had a chance to listen to the results of the current test.  I also have my own 2" machine and HD setup and already know what it sounds like to transfer from one to the other, so it's not such an urgent Sunday afternoon issue for me.  

Why not give the Chicago test a listen first.  Maybe it already makes your point.

-R
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Ron Steele

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Re: The LA Transfer
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2005, 08:40:10 pm »

What a joke!

You have not even heard the Chicago files yet, and because of what Albini said, the test is invalid or doesn't count?

This is very convenient, isn't it?

You always told people to go find out for themselves, and now that there is something real out there for people to hear and react to all of sudden the test is fucked up and the only way to fix it is if you do a test.

Can you say........ conflict of interest. Shocked

I'll say hedging after the fact.

P.S. the room was filled the full time pros. CRC can verify that for you if you need it.
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Tidewater

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Re: The LA Transfer
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2005, 10:16:43 pm »

How about using a recording of me commiting suicide to file #6 from the other test?

jane top this crazy thing

m
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Mixerman

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Re: The LA Transfer
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2005, 10:42:43 pm »

Dave Hecht is in. A great tech here in LA.

Mixerman
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Mixerman

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Re: The LA Transfer
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2005, 10:43:24 pm »

RKrizman wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 16:36

Mixerman wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 19:05

I'm still waiting for Rick Krizman, Rail Jon Ragut, and Bryan Jackson. Rick is avoding responding to this challenge entirely.


What, are you baiting me?  I still haven't had a chance to listen to the results of the current test.  I also have my own 2" machine and HD setup and already know what it sounds like to transfer from one to the other, so it's not such an urgent Sunday afternoon issue for me.  

Why not give the Chicago test a listen first.  Maybe it already makes your point.

-R


Are you in or not?

Yes or no?

Mixerman
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Rail Jon Rogut

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Re: The LA Transfer
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2005, 10:46:38 pm »

I just got home from the studio... hold your horses!

I offered to do - and arranged to do a test 3 years ago -- you kept making up reasons you couldn't attend (refresh your memory on the DUC threads if you need to).

Some points:

1) You said that the low end loss was obvious -- and a layperson should easily be able to hear the problem.

2) You said that the transfer to RADAR did not suffer the same low end problem as the Pro Tools HD transfer.

3) I've probably used analog tape for more years than you, and I know what it sounds like -- if transferring a 2" from a Studer 800 into Pro Tools removed the "balls" I would have heard it a long time ago.

I have no qualms rescheduling a test - I have access to a well maintained Neve 8078, Studer 827 and Studer 800, and Pro Tools HD.  The test would have to be scheduled when the room isn't booked.  I can even have my maids attend if we need them there.

I don't believe we need to waste our time though (I know I don't need to waste mine)... unless you can successfully identify the RADAR and Pro Tools sound files which have been posted.  According to your claims it should be a no brainer.  (I trust, of course, that no one will feed you the answer).

BTW the only way to do the test properly is to have an independent person run the ABX comparison system and only one person goes into the control room at a time with that person and sits in the center position and runs through the tests.  The computer and operator keep track of the results which are kept confidential until all listening is concluded.  We did this for the watermark technology many years ago -- Warner Brothers supplied the ABX system which used Sonic Solutions.

Rail
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Mixerman

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Re: The LA Transfer
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2005, 10:56:40 pm »

Rail Jon Rogut wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 19:46

I just got home from the studio... hold your horses!

I offered to do - and arranged to do a test 3 years ago -- you kept making up reasons you couldn't attend (refresh your memory on the DUC threads if you need to).


Point of order. I wasn't making up excuses. I had a very sick family member, and I take umbrage to you misrepresenting in this manner. If we're going to do this, then you're going to have to be a slight bit less of a dickwad. Can you do that for half a moment?

Quote:



Some points:

1) You said that the low end loss was obvious -- and a layperson should easily be able to hear the problem.

2) You said that the transfer to RADAR did not suffer the same low end problem as the Pro Tools HD transfer.

3) I've probably used analog tape for more years than you, and I know what it sounds like -- if transferring a 2" from a Studer 800 into Pro Tools removed the "balls" I would have heard it a long time ago.

I have no qualms rescheduling a test - I have access to a well maintained Neve 8078, Studer 827 and Studer 800, and Pro Tools HD.  The test would have to be scheduled when the room isn't booked.  I can even have my maids attend if we need them there.

I don't believe we need to waste our time though (I know I don't need to waste mine)... unless you can successfully identify the RADAR and Pro Tools sound files which have been posted.  According to your claims it should be a no brainer.  (I trust, of course, that no one will feed you the answer).

Rail


So then you're in.

Good.

I would prefer not to do it at Sound City, although it's not out of the question. My regards to Shivaun.

I'll schedule another room. Your maid is welcome to come, although you risk her hearing it when you don't, and that would be just plain embarassing.

Mixerman
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Rail Jon Rogut

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Re: The LA Transfer
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2005, 10:58:42 pm »

1) I'm only in if you can succefully identify the RADAR and Pro Tools sound files.

2) I'll only do the test in a room/facility I trust.  (Oceanway would do just fine -- Sound City's booked for a while anyway).

Rail
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Mixerman

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Re: The LA Transfer
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2005, 11:02:49 pm »

Rail Jon Rogut wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 19:58

1) I'm only in if you can succefully identify the RADAR and Pro Tools sound files.

2) I'll only do the test in a room/facility I trust.

Rail


Then you're out.

I knew you didn't have the balls.

Hint: I can't identify digital copies when I don't know what the original soudned like, and when you have nine files with different permeations.

Be real.

Mixerman
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Rail Jon Rogut

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Re: The LA Transfer
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2005, 11:05:26 pm »

Unless you can identify the RADAR and Pro Tools files it's a waste of my time.  You're the one who stated the issue was egregious and that the RADAR transfer was fine.  If that's the case, then the posted sound files should show the problem.

You said the RADAR transfer kept the "balls" and low end -- while the Pro Tools transfer didn't.  As I said should be a no-brainer.  Two of the sound files should be ballsy, and one shouldn't.

Apparently you can't!

Rail
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digiengineer

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Re: The LA Transfer
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2005, 11:12:49 pm »

Fuck it... I'll make some time for this, I'm in.
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RKrizman

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Re: The LA Transfer
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2005, 11:26:20 pm »

Mixerman wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 22:43


Are you in or not?

Yes or no?

Mixerman


What, are you invading Iraq or something?

-R
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RKrizman

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Re: The LA Transfer
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2005, 11:31:28 pm »

Mixerman wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 22:56

 Your maid is welcome to come, although you risk her hearing it when you don't, and that would be just plain embarassing.

Mixerman



I'm probably going to be in China, but perhaps I'll send a representative.index.php/fa/1886/0/
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